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Voyager's 'Cosmic Map' of Earth's Location Is Hopelessly Wrong

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Re: Voyager's 'Cosmic Map' of Earth's Location Is Hopelessly Wrong

#51
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you, completely. In fact, more than completely -- it's likely that there are a large number of signals that we didn't even think of as signals that a reasonably intelligent, resourceful alien detective could use to find us. My mind immediately jumps to the specific chemical composition of the metals, for instance. Or perhaps remnant zodiacal dust grains that will certainly be on it. Even simple orbital b…

Excellent point, in the heat of many discussions whether even a studied being of the same species [human] would get the hydrogen state reference, it never occurred that even without decoding anything nor putting any styluses anywhere, just the mere possession of the record and, for example, analyzing primordial traces could give us away... And I mentioned the C14 earth-bound analogy, damn! :)

I'm picturing an alien researcher saying:

"well, clearly it comes from a solar system orbiting a G-class star. There are 45,000 of those within a reasonable range based on the rate of micro-pitting on the protected vs unprotected surfaces. It seems to have been launched with an engine powered by hydrocarbons, and clearly they have been recently experimenting with nuclear weapons. Let's identify a candidate star with a habitable zone planet that shows signs of a run-away greenhouse effect and global thermonuclear exchange. Because clearly they have self-extincted, otherwise we would have already contacted them through other means."

Re: Voyager's 'Cosmic Map' of Earth's Location Is Hopelessly Wrong

#52
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The free space path loss from Earth to Alpha Centauri (4.4 ly) is ~345 dB at 100 MHz (FM broadcast). Our broadcast signals, with their relatively non-directional radiation patterns, are well below the thermal noise floor long before they reach anyone who might be listening for them. UHF television broadcasts fare even worse because they have a much wider bandwidth and an even greater free space path loss.

While I cannot put a label on it right now (but surely it has a name, read about it somewhere), it is some kind of paradox that sufficiently advanced civilizations will broadcast themselves openly and detectably only for a very very tiny fraction of time (tens of years are nothing on intergalactic, interstellar or even planetary scale). We quickly learned that blasting long-wave analog voice signals to the skies and…

It's not a paradox but it's based on our own techonlogical progression which is weird.

We are as a species 200-250,000 years old. For most of that time we did absolutely fucking nothing as it seems. Even for the recorded history which if we take the past 10,000 years then we still didn't made much progress as we did in the past 100. And the weird part is that we still have small pockets of population living like our ancestors 200K years ago.

In 100 years we went from horses to cars, to rockets and spaceships to the internet and computers small enough to fit in our pockets.

The 20th century was weird as fuck as far as scientific progression goes.

Re: Voyager's 'Cosmic Map' of Earth's Location Is Hopelessly Wrong

#53
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've got a fairly self-fulfilling wish. If we share a universe with Dark Foresters, you'll be destroyed! And if we don't, you won't!

Yes, if it would be code, pretty redundant. But the main point was that such a zip bomb species would be a fault of the universal system. I don't think it's that stupidly designed.

> I don't think it's that stupidly designed.

I don't think it's designed at all.

Re: Voyager's 'Cosmic Map' of Earth's Location Is Hopelessly Wrong

#54
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't buy it, at least not as stated in the book. The axioms in the book are flawed, and there are some unspoken axioms that aren't explicitly laid out. 1. Destroying a civilization isn't risk free. If you destroy a nearby star system that harbors life, you better be sure that your weapon can't be traced back to you, by either any observers, or by the survivors. (See Forge of God & The Anvil of the Stars[1] for a s…

Regarding point the second point. I assume there's a cost associated with using the weapon, even if it's untraceable. Regarding the Berserkers, it sounds a bit like a grey-goo scenario with self-replicating machines that wipe out all life. My personal feeling is that these scenarios are unlikely. If it were possible, it would have happened already... but it would be interesting to hear more systematic discussion of t…

> Regarding the Berserkers, it sounds a bit like a grey-goo scenario with self-replicating machines that wipe out all life

That's pretty much the idea, yeah.

Re: Voyager's 'Cosmic Map' of Earth's Location Is Hopelessly Wrong

#55
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe you're thinking of Contact, not 2001.

God, thought just occurred to me... imagine if we received that (re)transmission in this political climate...

The same thing will happen that happened in the movie? A bunch of idiots with "hitler is alive in space" signs on the streets.

What exactly would happen? You really think that the events in Charlottesville were because of Hitler? the KKK predates the Nazi party by over half a century. Eugenics was considered a progressive theory in the late 19th and early 20th century.

Anyone who simply defines the protestors as Nazis is either intentionally pushing a hyperbole or is negligently oversimplifying the situation.

Re: Voyager's 'Cosmic Map' of Earth's Location Is Hopelessly Wrong

#56

I don't think "hopelessly wrong" is correct, but we live in the era of clickbait titles, so of course it's not correct. Also, how "long term" is he talking? Because sure, in a billion years, provided Voyager isn't swallowed up by a star, the map is not going to be useful. I actually designed (and got) a tattoo based on this design, except that I updated the data on my version with data from newer astronomical catalog…

It's not that ET doesn't have a computer, it's that without omniscience they won't know which of those 200,000 pulsars were pointing at one of 100 billion stars way in the past.

Unless they already orbit all 100 billion stars, but even then it's 100,000 years to collect the data.

Basically with 200k pulsars sprinkled among 100B stars sprinkled over 200,000 light years it's very easy to get lost. A list of frequencies gets less useful over time. You saw a pretty big difference in the data between 1969 and 2002. Imagine the differences in 100k years.

Even a single unknown gravitational interaction could throw the probe way off in speed/direction.

Re: Voyager's 'Cosmic Map' of Earth's Location Is Hopelessly Wrong

#57
post #25
post #15

It's only a matter of time until someone notices we have a very weird spectral emission peaking around the TV and FM radio broadcast frequencies...

The free space path loss from Earth to Alpha Centauri (4.4 ly) is ~345 dB at 100 MHz (FM broadcast). Our broadcast signals, with their relatively non-directional radiation patterns, are well below the thermal noise floor long before they reach anyone who might be listening for them. UHF television broadcasts fare even worse because they have a much wider bandwidth and an even greater free space path loss.

How about atomic bombs? Or early radar (powerful, very low bandwith, and not particularly directional).

Basically how far away could the most power signals from earth be heard?

Should be several magnitudes more powerful than a FM broadcast, while being significantly lower bit rate.

Re: Voyager's 'Cosmic Map' of Earth's Location Is Hopelessly Wrong

#58
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, if it would be code, pretty redundant. But the main point was that such a zip bomb species would be a fault of the universal system. I don't think it's that stupidly designed.

> I don't think it's that stupidly designed. I don't think it's designed at all.

Why would you think that? Without any system there wouldn't be any science.

Re: Voyager's 'Cosmic Map' of Earth's Location Is Hopelessly Wrong

#59
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

God, thought just occurred to me... imagine if we received that (re)transmission in this political climate...

The same thing will happen that happened in the movie? A bunch of idiots with "hitler is alive in space" signs on the streets. What exactly would happen? You really think that the events in Charlottesville were because of Hitler? the KKK predates the Nazi party by over half a century. Eugenics was considered a progressive theory in the late 19th and early 20th century. Anyone who simply defines the protestors as Nazi…

Firstly, I am not an American so while the Charlottesville clashes might be the most proximate case of ’alt-right’ ’protest’/parading/provoking it is (sadly) far from unique. Reactionary, nationalistic, and populistic sentiment seems to be coming to the fore pretty much everywhere in the Western sphere.

Secondly, I tend to agree that the term ’Nazis’ is... inaccurate. Deserved, earned, maybe even desired by the paraders themselves but fundamentally inaccurate. They synthesise their ideology down to a kernel of intolerance and racism and reach the conclusion that they are the natural successor in an unbroken line of descent from the ’cool’ Nazis, and thus they claim and are accorded the mantle. However national socialist ideology was far more complex, and the Nazi party's structure far more evolved, than these little folks have.

Re: Voyager's 'Cosmic Map' of Earth's Location Is Hopelessly Wrong

#60

I don't think "hopelessly wrong" is correct, but we live in the era of clickbait titles, so of course it's not correct. Also, how "long term" is he talking? Because sure, in a billion years, provided Voyager isn't swallowed up by a star, the map is not going to be useful. I actually designed (and got) a tattoo based on this design, except that I updated the data on my version with data from newer astronomical catalog…

Am I wrong in summarising that ”hopelessly wrong map” could also be read as ”a map and a calendar (provided the eventual receivers have good enough records of pulsars going back eons”?
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