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DeepMind and Blizzard Open StarCraft II as an AI Research Environment

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Re: DeepMind and Blizzard Open StarCraft II as an AI Research Environment

#51

When Watson won at Jeopardy, one of its prime advantages was the faster reaction time at pushing the buzzer. The fairness of that has already been hashed out elsewhere, but..... We already know that computers can have superior micro and beat humans at Starcraft through that(1). Is DeepMind going to win by giving themselves a micro advantage that is beyond what reasonable humans can do? (1) https://www.youtube.com/wat…

Thanks for that video. That's exactly what I hope to see. AI vs. AI with insane micro capabilities. I want to see SC2 played as close to a "perfect" game as possible.

Yes it would be amazing to watch

Re: DeepMind and Blizzard Open StarCraft II as an AI Research Environment

#52

The API Blizzard is exposing is really nice. Sadly most of the advantages AI had in SC1 were just due to the fact that an automated process could micro-manage the tasks the game didn't automate for you (a lot of boring, repetitive work). SC2 got rid of a lot of that while still allowing room for innovative and overpowered tactics to be discovered (MarineKing's insane marine micro, SlayerS killing everyone with blue f…

> SC2 got rid of a lot of that You think so? My impression is that SC2 had a lot more of repetitive tasks you had to do. E.g. wall off the ramp, send a worker scouting, ... and you have to perform certain actions every X seconds (like using chrono boost). A lot or mastering the game is rote learning, and polishing a build order. Another big part is constantly scouting and reacting to what the enemy is doing. Due to t…

I really like the idea of a helper AI that takes high level commands and handles the manual dexterity aspect of the game. That would make RTS games a lot more attractive for someone like me who prefers simple, thoughtful games rather than complex games with a steep learning curve.

Re: DeepMind and Blizzard Open StarCraft II as an AI Research Environment

#53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh I see, thanks, I didn't know. But man, 300 GB per game sounds completely nuts!

I believe the 400GB is the total amount for the 65000 different game replays

Oh but how does that work? That's ~6 MB per game which sounds like just a list of actions rather than precomputed data per frame. Is it compressed somehow?

Re: DeepMind and Blizzard Open StarCraft II as an AI Research Environment

#54
post #50

"so agents must interact with the game within limits of human dexterity in terms of “Actions Per Minute”." I am really glad they are limiting APM because otherwise things just get stupid.

I would like to see IBM Watson dominate Jeopardy without a superhuman finger.

Watson’s hand looks like a clear, Plexiglas, cylindrical soda can with a few metal screws in the top and a wire extending from the bottom that is connected to Watson’s Front-End Controller. The mechanical hand wraps around the Jeopardy! buzzer which is inserted in the bottom of the Plexiglas cylinder and is held in place by a clamp. Watson’s hand uses a solenoid to physically press the same button that the humans must press.

Watson’s hand is pretty fast in terms of raw speed — it takes somewhere between five and ten milliseconds for Watson to activate the buzzer once it decides to answer. This delay is affected by the speed of the solenoid and other small, sometimes hard-to-pin-down delays inherent in the software stack.

http://www.kurzweilai.net/the-buzzer-factor-did-watson-have-...

I wonder if the human decision-to-buzzer time is much slower?

Re: DeepMind and Blizzard Open StarCraft II as an AI Research Environment

#55
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Churchill, of the SC AI competition, guesses it might take as much as 5 years: https://www.wired.com/story/googles-ai-declares-galactic-war...

Ooh, this'll be interesting to see, as with AlphaGo, a lot of people disputed the "experts believed it would take ~10 more years" claim retrospectively. With SC2, no AI even comes close to beating even a silver level player, so even a 5 year timeline seems really soon. Let's see if DeepMind can beat it! What's your totally unscientific guess, Gwern?

I think it is doable in under 5 years, but this critically depends on the resources invested by DM and other DL orgs. Deep RL is hugely demanding of computational resources to iterate your designs - for example, the first AlphaGo took something like 3 GPU-years to train it once (2 or 3 months parallelized); however, with much more iteration, DM was able to get Master's from-scratch training down to under 1 month. Now an AG researcher can iterate rapidly with small-scale hobbyist or researcher resources, but if they had had to do it all themselves, Ke Jie would still be waiting for a worthy adversary... When I look at all the recent deep RL research ( https://www.reddit.com/r/reinforcementlearning/ ) I definitely feel that we can't be far from an architecture which could solve SC2, but I don't know if anyone is going to invest the team+GPUs to do it within that timeframe. (It might not even be as complex as people think: some well-tuned mix of imitation learning on those 500k+ human games, self-play, residual RNNs for memory/POMDP-solving, and use of recent work on planning over high-level environment modeling\, might well be enough.)

\ "Learning model-based planning from scratch" https://arxiv.org/abs/1707.06170 , Pascanu et al 2017; "Imagination-Augmented Agents for Deep Reinforcement Learning" https://arxiv.org/abs/1707.06203 , Weber et al 2017 (blog: https://deepmind.com/blog/agents-imagine-and-plan/ "Agents that imagine and plan"); "Path Integral Networks: End-to-End Differentiable Optimal Control" https://arxiv.org/abs/1706.09597 , Okada et al 2017; "Value Prediction Network" https://arxiv.org/abs/1707.03497 , Oh et al 2017; "Prediction and Control with Temporal Segment Models" https://arxiv.org/abs/1703.04070 , Mishra et al 2017

Re: DeepMind and Blizzard Open StarCraft II as an AI Research Environment

#56
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would like to see IBM Watson dominate Jeopardy without a superhuman finger.

Watson’s hand looks like a clear, Plexiglas, cylindrical soda can with a few metal screws in the top and a wire extending from the bottom that is connected to Watson’s Front-End Controller. The mechanical hand wraps around the Jeopardy! buzzer which is inserted in the bottom of the Plexiglas cylinder and is held in place by a clamp. Watson’s hand uses a solenoid to physically press the same button that the humans mus…

Typical human response time to a stimulus is about 200ms. That of course doesn't factor in the decision time, but once the brain decides on an action it takes about 200 Ms for the signal to propagate to the relevant muscles.

Re: DeepMind and Blizzard Open StarCraft II as an AI Research Environment

#57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh I see, thanks, I didn't know. But man, 300 GB per game sounds completely nuts!

I believe the 400GB is the total amount for the 65000 different game replays

@wfunction: yes, TorchCraft includes a serializer that compresses the useful game state into a relatively small struct. That is then further compressed with other tricks and zstd.

Re: DeepMind and Blizzard Open StarCraft II as an AI Research Environment

#58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you sure you're interpreting 'macro' correctly? 'Macro' in the context of RTS games isn't the same as 'macro commands' in scripting, but refers to basically all high level decisions. RTS is divided up into Macro, tactics and micro: - Macro: resource prioritization (army vs expansions vs upgrades), scouting to understand the opponent's macro choices, choosing the right posture in response (defensive, harassment or…

Your definition of macro is a lot more encompassing than how I see it used in SC2. It normally refers to just spending resources properly (constantly producing units and workers, setting up infrastructure, etc).

I hear you. Usually the bottleneck of macro-effectiveness is the part you mention, the decision-making parts can be simplistic in mid-to-high levels and still plenty effective. So "improving your macro" usually refers to remembering to build workers and not getting supply blocked. Getting supply blocked or not hitting production cycles is more likely to get you behind in StarCraft.

That said, in high-level play, "better macro" usually refers to the other things, not just mechanically hitting stride with production, as most players in the top .01% are on the same level with those mechanics.

Re: DeepMind and Blizzard Open StarCraft II as an AI Research Environment

#59
This seems all in good fun but I wonder if it's come too late.

Starcraft 2 is at its twilight.

The biggest leagues of South Korea have disbanded. [1] The prolific progamers who transitioned to Starcraft 2 have gone back to Broodwar. [2]

Blizzard itself has scrubbed all references to Starcraft 2 on the very home page of Starcraft. [3] Except for the twitter embed, it has only only one "2" character... in the copyright statement.

My take is that the future for the Starcraft franchise will be through remastered and potential expansion packs following it.

Starcraft 2 had a good run but, with the entire RTS genre stagnating [4], I don't think Blizzard wants to bet on anything less than the top horse.

[1] https://www.kotaku.com.au/2016/10/the-end-of-an-era-for-star...

[2] http://www.espn.com/esports/story/_/id/18935988/starcraft-br...

[3] http://starcraft.com

[4]http://www.pcgamer.com/the-decline-evolution-and-future-of-t... (Aside from MOBAs)

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