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More than 60 women consider suing Google, claiming sexism and a pay gap

theguardian.com

51–60 of 136 posts

Re: More than 60 women consider suing Google, claiming sexism and a pay gap

#51

Every time an article like this pops up, I see the same sort of response. It's always - Women don't negotiate - Women get pregnant - Women work in lower pay professions And 90% of the time, the article already accounts for the nuances of those topics. Not to mention these arguments have been answered thoroughly many times over, and a cursory google would reveal that. I just wish people would do some basic research be…

Even if those facts are true, Google must have programs to make things fair. For same responsibilities same salary.

You can say women are different than men or say they are exactly equals. Whatever is your position for the same job you must have the same salary. There shouldn't be any discussion here.

Re: More than 60 women consider suing Google, claiming sexism and a pay gap

#52
This incident confirms tech is indeed a hostile place for women full of insecure men, who will grasp at anything to retain privilege.

And women should be rightfully wary of all these fragile men who will watch them like hawks looking for any excuse to confirm their bias.

The kind of comments these threads are full of are a shocking reflection of a complete lack of understanding of history, sexism, privilege and women.

But the root cause is some people have convinced themselves they are so 'special' and 'superior' only a tiny 'approved' elite can do the jobs they do and anyone who diminishes this supremacist insecure identity will pay with bad science.

The irony is all these self appointed 'geniuses' who can 'decide' all by themselves about their own skill level and 'lowering the bar' do not have anything remotely approaching science or measure to explain how they came to this fruity conclusion about themselves and others. This is beyond absurd.

This is out of control self importance and hubris fuelled by SV culture and is as far away from rational scientific discourse as any self obsessed victimhood peddling supremacist.

Re: More than 60 women consider suing Google, claiming sexism and a pay gap

#53
post #6

Here is a clue for everyone: you aren't paid according to the value you bring. You are either paid according to some pseudo-arbitrary schedule or you are paid what you can be had for. Unless Google has a secret pay penalty for females, the problem here is women being willing to work for less. No lawsuit is needed to correct that.

> you aren't paid according to the value you bring

As soon as you cost more than the value you bring, the business will lost interest in keeping you anyway.

Re: More than 60 women consider suing Google, claiming sexism and a pay gap

#55
post #6

Here is a clue for everyone: you aren't paid according to the value you bring. You are either paid according to some pseudo-arbitrary schedule or you are paid what you can be had for. Unless Google has a secret pay penalty for females, the problem here is women being willing to work for less. No lawsuit is needed to correct that.

Quite recently, Google was found guilty of colluding to depress engineer salaries via "no poaching" agreements. Google doesn't get the "free market" benefit of the doubt anymore in these matters.

They were only successfully accused of poaching in the USA, but the accused are global companies, and it seems unlikely they didn't do the same elsewhere too. They might well still be doing it too.

Re: More than 60 women consider suing Google, claiming sexism and a pay gap

#56
post #20
post #8

> The document, which was widely condemned as misogynistic and scientifically inaccurate Citation needed? Have The Guardian actually read the memo? They are re-iterating misconceptions based on Gizmodos original story, where Gizmodo deliberately gave a misleading report, removed sources and incorrectly presented an internal memo for internal discussion as an "anti-diversity manifesto". Even a cursory glance of the ac…

>> The document, which was widely condemned as misogynistic and scientifically inaccurate > Citation needed? Have The Guardian actually read the memo? Maybe I'm being pedantic, but the document was widely condemned as being both of those things. Reporting that those condemnations occurred (they did) isn't an implicit validation of said condemnations.

Reporting the condemnations without commenting on their truthiness could be considered to be implicity validating them.

Re: More than 60 women consider suing Google, claiming sexism and a pay gap

#57
post #6

Here is a clue for everyone: you aren't paid according to the value you bring. You are either paid according to some pseudo-arbitrary schedule or you are paid what you can be had for. Unless Google has a secret pay penalty for females, the problem here is women being willing to work for less. No lawsuit is needed to correct that.

Quite recently, Google was found guilty of colluding to depress engineer salaries via "no poaching" agreements. Google doesn't get the "free market" benefit of the doubt anymore in these matters.

They were only successfully accused of poaching in the USA, but the accused are global companies, and it seems unlikely they didn't do the same elsewhere too. They might well still be doing it too.

Re: More than 60 women consider suing Google, claiming sexism and a pay gap

#58

Please downvote! It's 2017, an introduction to a sentence I totally hate, and 60 women are suing a progressive company for sexism. One freaking hundred years, or something, after women started voting. What happened in that time? Women were blind to say the least? How is this NOT evidence that men and women are different. I've seen countless cases of men fighting and swearing at each other, bragging about themselves,…

>dynamic of personal choices and psychology is so complicated and so contingent to personal background and current state So these women choose to have lower salaries even though they have the same qualifications/experience?

One thing that I'm observing in software engineering students that I have seen over the years is that in the most skilled range (ones who are quite capable of doing all kinds of tasks and also have enough market leverage to get hired for whichever kind of role they'd prefer) wind up on quite different career paths depending on gender.

In particular, the skilled male students went on in all kinds of roles, roughly matching everything that the industry demands, but the skilled female students (with very few exceptions, I've seen two IIRC), as a rule, all chose from the subset of roles that are more, how to say, people focused. Despite having excellent technical skills as well (which I have seen and compared with their male peers), they have chosen not to do the core hands-on technical work and go on to related careers in e.g. system analysis, project management, testing, on-site consulting, technical sales, etc - even if they'd be paid more as a straightforward individual technical contributor.

I've seen them decline "poaching" offers to such positions with superior pay because they prefer what they're doing now and, unlike some (not all, but a large portion) of the men they've understood that they just won't be happy spending almost all of their day fighting code problems, and since they're good and can choose their conditions, they choose something that's more rewarding for them - knowing full well that it limits their salary. Sure, it's anecdotal experience, but it's many anecdotes so the patterns seem visible.

Re: More than 60 women consider suing Google, claiming sexism and a pay gap

#59
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> The document, which was widely condemned as misogynistic and scientifically inaccurate > Citation needed? Have The Guardian actually read the memo? Maybe I'm being pedantic, but the document was widely condemned as being both of those things. Reporting that those condemnations occurred (they did) isn't an implicit validation of said condemnations.

> Reporting that those condemnations occurred (they did) isn't an implicit validation If 9/11, Iraq and WMDs have taught us anything, it is that repeating a lie enough times makes it true. This is repeating the lie. Sure. It's done by reference only, and not directly, but it's still a repetition.

> 9/11

What lies are you referring to?

Re: More than 60 women consider suing Google, claiming sexism and a pay gap

#60
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.quora.com/What-are-the-salary-ranges-of-each-lev... https://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Google-Salaries-E9079.htm It seems similar to the way it was at Facebook in that when you start, you'll be assigned a level based on your previous experience and it'll be corrected soon afterwards if it turns out to have been wrong. They mostly corrected up, though - it was very rare for someone to be assigned a high leve…

The ranges are wide to give room for salary negotiations at the beginning of employment, but also to allow for salary raises for people who are not yet considered to be at a higher level. E.g. you could be a junior developer, but a very good junior, who deserves a pay rise because of performance, engagement or whatever, but still a junior technically. If you get quite far into your own salary range but never get prom…

How do you move someone from junior to the next level? For me if someone has a better performance he/she should move to the next level regardless of the time he/she has been a junior. Are seniors consider that because of their performance?
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