Why Good People Leave Large Tech Companies • Hacker News Board

Re: Why Good People Leave Large Tech Companies

#51

Post by jeff_marshall » Sat, Jul 22, 2017, 3:00 AM UTC

frozenport wrote: post #42

I'd like to remind people that large companies are the only ones capable of hiring junior engineers who might not be at full productivity at day 0. This is especially true of the C++ ecosystem.

How large is large? Hiring junior engineers or developers definitely happens in companies smaller than FB or GOOG.

Perhaps you mean something specific by "capable"?

I won't disagree that c++ (as a technology) can be a minefield, but this also holds for many technologies and markets (civil aviation being a great example).

I may have missed an implicit /s, for which I apologize in adavance...

Re: Why Good People Leave Large Tech Companies

#52

Post by el_benhameen » Sat, Jul 22, 2017, 3:03 AM UTC

kbos87 wrote: post #39

quotemstr wrote: post #35

The most important lesson for people in power in big tech companies: FORMAL PROCESS IS THE ENEMY. Don't let the accumulation of gatekeepers and approvers and other capital-P Process let things become 100x harder than they need to be. Do not confuse difficulty with prudence. Your organization will become slow and ossified by default unless you take specific steps to maintain flexibility. One of these steps is to insta…

I have a hunch that you've never worked at a growing mid-sized or large company that is clinging to its startup roots and is averse to any sort of process at all. Being unwilling to adopt a necessary amount of structure and process is just as much of a hindrance once you hit a certain size. That may be a newer or less common problem, but it's a very real one.

Agreed. I've often found that those who are resistant to any amount of (reasonable) formal process are those (usually long timers) who were most empowered by the implicit process and rules. In the end, they're also saying "nothing should change unless I say so".

Re: Why Good People Leave Large Tech Companies

#53

Post by jsmo » Sat, Jul 22, 2017, 3:04 AM UTC

I left a large tech company for very similar reasons.

Re: Why Good People Leave Large Tech Companies

#54

Post by inopinatus » Sat, Jul 22, 2017, 3:07 AM UTC

banned1 wrote: post #47

quotemstr wrote: post #35

The most important lesson for people in power in big tech companies: FORMAL PROCESS IS THE ENEMY. Don't let the accumulation of gatekeepers and approvers and other capital-P Process let things become 100x harder than they need to be. Do not confuse difficulty with prudence. Your organization will become slow and ossified by default unless you take specific steps to maintain flexibility. One of these steps is to insta…

"Emphasize that the most important part of software development is moving fast." No, that is not the case most times. The most important part of software development is, as with any other part of the company, to maximize the value of the company. That may be speed, but if you have 1m users the most important thing may be to preserve trust, to acquire new customers, to automate existing infrastructure, etc. etc. Speed…

"Maximising company value" isn't a useful end goal you can give to anyone but the CxO team. For everyone else, it's a motherhood statement. Trotting it out as though it's some kind of engineering compass isn't helpful.

To this you've appended the hackneyed conflation between "speed" and "cowboy attitude". It's a common category error, but in truth, rapid iteration is one of the enablers of high quality and is a huge effectiveness multiplier for top shelf dev teams. Slow development merely enables lazy programmers (since it conceals their apathy) and gives us waterfall disasters. "Thoughtful execution" is possible in any context, and most thought processes are greatly enhanced by evidential techniques such as rapid prototyping / feature spiking.

Fast+incompetent = cowboy attitude, sure, but the problem there isn't the fast bit.

Re: Why Good People Leave Large Tech Companies

#55

Post by erikpukinskis » Sat, Jul 22, 2017, 3:07 AM UTC

quotemstr wrote: post #35

The most important lesson for people in power in big tech companies: FORMAL PROCESS IS THE ENEMY. Don't let the accumulation of gatekeepers and approvers and other capital-P Process let things become 100x harder than they need to be. Do not confuse difficulty with prudence. Your organization will become slow and ossified by default unless you take specific steps to maintain flexibility. One of these steps is to insta…

I just learned about Hegel so now everything is a nail, but...

You really can't make categorical statements like "formal process is the enemy". You put formal process into place, and that creates a dialectic where you're waiting for someone to come in and champion the antithesis: "formal process is the enemy". Then that works for a bit until it doesn't and someone synthesizes: "sometimes formal is better sometimes informal is better". Then that becomes the thesis.

Then there's a new dialectic in place. Someone will come in and say "the character of our company is such that we're generally better with formal processes". Then someone synthesizes that, and suggests that all processes are on a trajectory from formal to informal and the company is good at expediting that.

Then someone realizes we need a process for regular deformalization.

This continues forever. None of these ideas are really that much more generically true than any other.

So to embrace Hegel, the goal is just to question yourself as far as you reasonably can, so as to get the best view on the current situation and only the current situation. Make a choice and move on, knowing the next situation is likely to be different.

Edit: I should add this is the process by which we hurry into The Future, which some people might point out means turning our backs on Everything That Is Holy and is therefore a tool of Satan, but I'll leave you to explore that with the rapidly growing universe of anti-Hegelian YouTubers.

Re: Why Good People Leave Large Tech Companies

#56

Post by shostack » Sat, Jul 22, 2017, 3:09 AM UTC

objclxt wrote: post #23

scdoshi wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many (if not most) companies do stock refreshes annually, don't they?

Yes, but after the initial grant has vested entirely your opportunities for growth are limited. Here's an example - say I'm hired with 1000 units of stock over four years. Each year I receive a refresher grant of 250 units of stock, again vesting over four years. Once I reach Year 4, my stock compensation stabilizes, assuming my refreshers remain the same (I'm am obviously grossly simplifying - you could be promoted…

Are you able to put any actual dollar or % amounts against this?

Re: Why Good People Leave Large Tech Companies

#57

Post by jjtheblunt » Sat, Jul 22, 2017, 3:10 AM UTC

quotemstr wrote: post #35

The most important lesson for people in power in big tech companies: FORMAL PROCESS IS THE ENEMY. Don't let the accumulation of gatekeepers and approvers and other capital-P Process let things become 100x harder than they need to be. Do not confuse difficulty with prudence. Your organization will become slow and ossified by default unless you take specific steps to maintain flexibility. One of these steps is to insta…

That's exactly why I left Apple engineering, and I've not regretted it, somewhat sadly, somewhat happily.

Re: Why Good People Leave Large Tech Companies

#58

Post by badminton1 » Sat, Jul 22, 2017, 3:11 AM UTC

Because companies grow not only horizontally but vertically.

Vertical structures create encapsulation of individuals and that leaves room to exploit information asymmetries.

e.g: stealing credit, favoritism, etc... rigging the game to their favor.

At the late stages of this game, people like this can get away with anything: hiring and promoting their friends, openly insulting people, just openly lie knowing nobody can do anything about it, etc.

Re: Why Good People Leave Large Tech Companies

#59

Post by hkmurakami » Sat, Jul 22, 2017, 3:11 AM UTC

mnm1 wrote: post #46

This attitude of "you really have to want to work here or you ought to leave" justifies a lot of insanity. I've heard it from companies who make potential employees jump through ridiculous hoops to even get a chance at a job. Here's reality for people who suffer from this delusion: most people don't give a fuck and are just looking for a job. They're applying to dozens or hundreds of jobs (yes, even in software), and…

As an aside, my 20-something-SF-resident-friends are flabbergasted when I tell them that I, as a person who's spent his whole life is this start up la-la-land that is SV, have absolutely no interest in "changing the world".

I just want to work on interesting business problems, just like many others just want to work on interesting technical problems.

Re: Why Good People Leave Large Tech Companies

#60

Post by geofft » Sat, Jul 22, 2017, 3:12 AM UTC

quotemstr wrote: post #35

The most important lesson for people in power in big tech companies: FORMAL PROCESS IS THE ENEMY. Don't let the accumulation of gatekeepers and approvers and other capital-P Process let things become 100x harder than they need to be. Do not confuse difficulty with prudence. Your organization will become slow and ossified by default unless you take specific steps to maintain flexibility. One of these steps is to insta…

> Emphasize that the most important part of software development is moving fast.

This doesn't seem to me to be true. Can you expand on your thoughts here?

I'd agree that the ability to move fast is an essential part of effective software development, but I don't think it's the most important (the most important is producing business value accurately and reliably), and I think that moving fast for the sake of moving fast is likely to result in moving quickly in the wrong direction. In particular, it's easy to be so worried about moving fast that you have no time to take new business needs/opportunities into account (see also Tom DeMarco's Slack), and it's easy to get excited about shiny new technology and spend a lot of time implementing it and roleplaying Google for no reason, which is a great way to move very quickly while not delivering a cent of business value.

Finding somewhere with formal process, with full-time managers who aren't reluctantly moved to management for career advancement, with clear hierarchy and goals, was an important part of my most recent job search, simply because, as a good engineer, I hate to see my work go to waste. I have heard the same sentiment from lots of my talented friends.