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Pentagon study declares American Empire is 'collapsing'

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Re: Pentagon study declares American Empire is 'collapsing'

#51

Post by mindcrime »

Analemma_ wrote: post #48
alexandercrohde wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You really can't think of any middle-ground between what we have now and anarchy/libertarianism? How about just this as starters: 1. Legalize marijuana 2. End civil asset forfeiture 3. Stronger anti-trust on the internet and wireless spectrum 4. Improve the legal system to prevent civil cases from stifling free speech (perhaps by offering pro-bono lawyers to individuals sued by corporations for acts of speech only) 5…

I am in favor of all four (EDIT: five, my bad). But none of those are related to the GP's comment.

But none of those are related to the GP's comment.

Actually they kinda are. When I say "don't trust government" you can take that as "grant government ZERO authority which can be abused" (the anarchist position, and, by happenstance, pretty much my actual position), but you can also read it as "trust the government with less authority which can be abused."

And even as an anarchist, I'd take any developments in regards to the latter half of that as progress in a generally positive direction. I mean, I'm an anarchist, but I'm also a pragmatist. We won't get an ancap society in my lifetime, but if we could scale back the size and scope of government just a bit, I would be happy(er).

Re: Pentagon study declares American Empire is 'collapsing'

#52

Post by alexandercrohde »

Analemma_ wrote: post #48
alexandercrohde wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You really can't think of any middle-ground between what we have now and anarchy/libertarianism? How about just this as starters: 1. Legalize marijuana 2. End civil asset forfeiture 3. Stronger anti-trust on the internet and wireless spectrum 4. Improve the legal system to prevent civil cases from stifling free speech (perhaps by offering pro-bono lawyers to individuals sued by corporations for acts of speech only) 5…

I am in favor of all four (EDIT: five, my bad). But none of those are related to the GP's comment.

Okay, so people should not trust their government. Ways they can not trust their government are by

1. Separation of powers

2. Accountability via body-cams

3. Freedom of speech to protect political progress that threatens incumbents

4. Making voting systems that have auditibility

etc. These are all good practical ways to reduce trust in government with no downside. Why ask for "trust" instead of offering proof?

It is our role in a democracy not to trust our government, but to guide it (by selecting the correct representatives) to represent us on the things we agree on.

Re: Pentagon study declares American Empire is 'collapsing'

#53

Post by mindcrime »

alexandercrohde wrote: post #52
Analemma_ wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am in favor of all four (EDIT: five, my bad). But none of those are related to the GP's comment.

Okay, so people should not trust their government. Ways they can not trust their government are by 1. Separation of powers 2. Accountability via body-cams 3. Freedom of speech to protect political progress that threatens incumbents 4. Making voting systems that have auditibility etc. These are all good practical ways to reduce trust in government with no downside. Why ask for "trust" instead of offering proof? It is…

That's a great point. And to the extent that we do allow "government" and grant it some authority, transparency is - to my mind - absolutely essential. That is, if we're going to give a subset of people some privileged degree of power over others, then it is extremely incumbent upon us to ensure that that position isn't abused. And personally I feel like our current (US) government is far, far away from being properly transparent, or accountable to the people.

So anything that moves towards less secrecy, and more transparency, is compatible with my "don't trust government" position. Of course one can argue about just how far to take it, but I think most of us agree that we've gone too far in the secrecy and obfuscation direction as of late.

Re: Pentagon study declares American Empire is 'collapsing'

#54

Post by codyb »

nnfy wrote: post #28
Bjorkbat wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The Americans have brought their armed forces back home, adopted sensible foreign and domestic policies, and are starting to see eye-to-eye with people whom they once found too foreign to relate to. Now is the perfect time to strike!"

Our global hegemony ensures stability of trade for the entire world, and that stability is the reason that other countries eagerly trade and generally deal business with the US. Unfortunately, if we back away from our role as world police, the resulting power vacuum will see some other country take up the role at best, and at worst we could see another large scale conflict as emerging powers compete for dominance. Ou…

I feel like a lot of people have a lot of trouble appreciating the wars that _didn't_ happen under American hegemony. I don't believe we're perfect in anyway, but under our influence the world has been more peaceful and interconnected than at any other time in world history.

Re: Pentagon study declares American Empire is 'collapsing'

#55

Post by petraeus »

Theres a easy cure that will be the norm in 100 or 200 years, whenever we get sick of capitalism. You're right capitalism is not currently recognized as a form of government, but in reality it is the dominant form of government in the west.

The cure is, get this, transparency. It'll take some effort to get to a true transparent government and im calling this new form Transparentism.

Re: Pentagon study declares American Empire is 'collapsing'

#56

Post by jrs235 »

codyb wrote: post #54
nnfy wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Our global hegemony ensures stability of trade for the entire world, and that stability is the reason that other countries eagerly trade and generally deal business with the US. Unfortunately, if we back away from our role as world police, the resulting power vacuum will see some other country take up the role at best, and at worst we could see another large scale conflict as emerging powers compete for dominance. Ou…

I feel like a lot of people have a lot of trouble appreciating the wars that _didn't_ happen under American hegemony. I don't believe we're perfect in anyway, but under our influence the world has been more peaceful and interconnected than at any other time in world history.

Similar to the violence that was quelled under Saddam. It's difficult to appreciate and measure that which is absent.

Re: Pentagon study declares American Empire is 'collapsing'

#57

Post by thatswrong0 »

lightbyte wrote: post #30
mindcrime wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait, what?? Where did I say anything remotely like "trust no one"? Trusting governments has worked out so well historically though. That got us many wars, untold numbers of people killed, incarcerated and/or experimented on. It got us untold numbers of people inhibited from creating wealth and a better future for themselves, so the existing elite power base could preserve itself. It got us civil asset forfeiture, th…

Are you suggesting any alternate ideas here, or just ranting about "muh gubment"?

All they're suggesting is that trusting the government is a silly idea, and then provided examples of it. I don't think they're suggesting necessarily that we need a brand new kind of government - just that we should for good reason be wary of the one we currently have.

Re: Pentagon study declares American Empire is 'collapsing'

#58

Post by irickt »

thatswrong0 wrote: post #57
lightbyte wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you suggesting any alternate ideas here, or just ranting about "muh gubment"?

All they're suggesting is that trusting the government is a silly idea, and then provided examples of it. I don't think they're suggesting necessarily that we need a brand new kind of government - just that we should for good reason be wary of the one we currently have.

"Government" is governance of humans by humans. It has never been "good" because the past is so dismal and because humans collectively have not come to make it good.

The challenge for those who critize government generically is that they design a good governance ... whether we call some part of it government or not.

Re: Pentagon study declares American Empire is 'collapsing'

#59

Post by mnm1 »

I wonder if this is what the Soviets proposed right before their collapse. I guess when you're a hammer (Pentagon) you only know how to hit things (war). We may or may not be about to collapse as an empire, but I'm certain that if we follow the plan outlined here, we will collapse as a society. We've already been heading there for quite awhile now. Let's spend more on military while our citizens are jobless, homeless, and dying of sickness, then use propaganda to tell them they're living the high life. There are, unfortunately, enough stupid people in this country to keep such a charade going. The current leadership, both political and military, is just a reflection of that.

Re: Pentagon study declares American Empire is 'collapsing'

#60

Post by khedoros1 »

alexandercrohde wrote: post #35
lightbyte wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a laundry list of stuff that will never happen in any current country in any of our life times.

I've heard people say that before, but I don't see why I should believe it. 230 years ago America didn't exist. 150 years ago black people were property. 100 years ago women could not vote. 50 years ago nobody owned a computer. Until recently, weed was illegal. The world is changing really fast, and the rate of change is getting faster. When people argue "That could never change!" I have to wonder if they have any re…

Countries rise and fall. There is still slavery in America, and (separately) black people and women are often still disadvantaged compared to other races and to men. Weed is still illegal in the majority of states and under federal law. These are things that change and shift over time.

1+2. One way or another, America will "stop playing world police". It might do things like adopt the metric system (depending on how long the "rugged independence" streak runs). U.S. climate policy is about as important to the world as Californian climate policy is to the rest of the country (near zero). The internet is already splintering into interlinked regional networks, and will continue to do so naturally.

3. War isn't inherently a way to enrich private entities, although it's clearly true that that's one effect of it, in this country right now (and arguably, currently the primary reason). War has been a constant reality, at least since the time humans began agriculture. Maybe it'll go away in the future, but I see no evidence of it.

4. One over-arching nation, with some division of regional governments. Conflict will just move down the tree.

5. A single, universal language isn't an inherently good thing. It sounds like a great way to kill off cultural diversity.

6. We'll have to change the nature of the human animal. We're naturally prone to categorizing, ranking, organizing, and using those structures to assess threat levels. Denying that is fighting nature; you won't win that war.

> The world is changing really fast, and the rate of change is getting faster. When people argue "That could never change!" I have to wonder if they have any real evidence... Do you?

True, true. Things will change. They'll follow the path of least resistance, on the macro and micro levels. Your 6 steps are fighting entropy the whole way. They're radical claims. Radical claims require radical evidence...do you have any?

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