Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Americans think they live in a democracy. But workplaces are small tyrannies

vox.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

51–60 of 75 posts

Re: Americans think they live in a democracy. But workplaces are small tyrannies

#51

Post by coldtea »

GhostVII wrote: post #24
cphoover wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Haven't read the article... but my response to you is that not every "contractual" agreement is voluntary. Think people working minimum wage jobs to feed their children, or children working in sweatshops in asia. I get what you are saying... that it is a click bait title, but the fact remains that the late-stage capitalistic hierarchies that form are not totally unlike other labor systems (indentured servitude/slaver…

How is a minimum wage job not optional? People stay in their minimum wage jobs because it is better than their other options, not because the company forces them too. Really, the company giving the person their minimum wage job is more 'moral' than the other companies in the area, because the other companies offered an even worse job, or didn't offer one at all.

>How is a minimum wage job not optional? People stay in their minimum wage jobs because it is better than their other options, not because the company forces them too.

Because by optional we mean a totally free choice -- not merely the necessity to chose among N available options (lest you starve).

There are degrees in freedom (a rich person doesn't have to work at all if they don't feel like it), but when you're scouting for minimum wage jobs, you're at the lowest of those degrees.

Re: Americans think they live in a democracy. But workplaces are small tyrannies

#52

Post by coldtea »

GhostVII wrote: post #34
subway wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, I guess giving up and letting your family or yourself starve is an option. For a lot of folks in low wage positions, the mere act of looking for an alternative puts their current wages in jeopardy. Their employer may decide they're now disloyal and sack them. They bring home less money because they have to spend unpaid time searching for a new gig -- they'd do it outside of work hours, but at some point you h…

Yea, so the company provides a significant benefit, because without them the person would starve. I don't see why any of that is the companies problem, should they pay people more money just to be nice? The governments job is to ensure that regulations allow people to switch jobs without putting their family in jeopardy by having unemployment benefits, food stamps, etc, not the companies job.

>Yea, so the company provides a significant benefit, because without them the person would starve. I don't see why any of that is the companies problem, should they pay people more money just to be nice

Yes.

Re: Americans think they live in a democracy. But workplaces are small tyrannies

#53

Post by crdoconnor »

nxsynonym wrote: post #47
crdoconnor wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never said it was the same thing and I didn't make an argument. If you think "true freedom" is the ability to choose between minimum wage servitude and a (substantially criminalized) panhandling lifestyle that doesn't say much for your conception of freedom.

If you're not making an argument then why even mention it? True freedom is living in a society that provides the necessities for every individual, or living in a completely lawless non-society. What is it that you are getting at, exactly? Or are you just posting to being argumentative (without making an argument).

To determine if you really thought that not being able to choose your master was the distinguishing feature of slavery as you previously claimed.

Apparently you didn't really think that.

My point was that there's no stark dividing line between freedom and slavery and that wage slavery does indeed share many of the same features as chattel slavery.

Re: Americans think they live in a democracy. But workplaces are small tyrannies

#54

Post by coldtea »

fallingfrog wrote: post #43
fallingfrog wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tyranny is not black and white. Just because this is not North Korea does not mean that we are free, and just because a relationship is contractual does not mean it's fair. There are fantastic, gigantic power imbalances in this country, and this is one of them- and if people point out a moral problem it does not mean they are playing the victim, whining, or hitting emotional buttons. You can justify sharecropping wit…

Besides, why is it that democracy in government is common sense but workplace democracy is just crazy talk?

Probably because also "democracy in government" is also BS, but harmless (people get to chose between two same-ish parties, with most options that affect the majority of them being the same, and some token items where they differ so that each can catch the appropriate demographic).

If that wasn't the case, a country could potentially change hugely from government to government, but most of what they do is small stuff, and all converge towards the benefits of corporations and mega-interests.

Re: Americans think they live in a democracy. But workplaces are small tyrannies

#55

Post by coldtea »

blacksmith_tb wrote: post #38
justadeveloper2 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have the same thoughts every July 4th. I ask myself 'what exactly am I celebrating here?' Our rights and freedoms seem heavily curtailed and most people have to work and are wage slaves in service of their debts. I am debt-free, but have not yet managed to extract myself from this system. Health insurance is a big reason why. Also, there are few part-time jobs that pay anything and although I have been attempting a…

I agree overall, but I would say that in terms of your work killing your body, software dev is clearly much less destructive than, say, working in construction. But likely anything you do nonstop for hours on end is going to exact a toll. I am interested in what you think the purpose of the our system is - social control? Simple snatch-and-grab by the 1% ?

Perpetuating itself and treating well those in power that treat it well.

Like any remotely complex systems, it's all about replicating and thriving itself.

Re: Americans think they live in a democracy. But workplaces are small tyrannies

#56

Post by coldtea »

mac01021 wrote: post #25
justadeveloper2 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see it that way at all. Trump is not responsible for what has taken place here, as fun as it is to blame him. I see him as someone who is trying to undo a lot of the problems and fix them but he has no support from either the Democrats or the Republicans because both sides are vested in continuing the slave plantation that we have here in service of the ultra .01%. In Trump, we have a guy who is part of the s…

> we're headed for third world style living, and let's be honest--a large number of Americans are already living in third world squalor. What constitutes third world squalor? Not many Americans are starving, having to make do without indoor plumbing, or spending 12 hours per day collecting firewood.

Millions of Americans are homeless or leave in crapy trailers and ghettos, even more eat with food stamps, and even more can't afford health care.

Heck, the U.S. "Has The Worst Rate Of Maternal Deaths In The Developed World"...

http://www.npr.org/2017/05/12/528098789/u-s-has-the-worst-ra...

Re: Americans think they live in a democracy. But workplaces are small tyrannies

#57

Post by fallingfrog »

coldtea wrote: post #54
fallingfrog wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Besides, why is it that democracy in government is common sense but workplace democracy is just crazy talk?

Probably because also "democracy in government" is also BS, but harmless (people get to chose between two same-ish parties, with most options that affect the majority of them being the same, and some token items where they differ so that each can catch the appropriate demographic). If that wasn't the case, a country could potentially change hugely from government to government, but most of what they do is small stuff…

That's true, but if we had daily, practical experience with democracy on a day to day basis- then maybe on a large scale our system would become less dysfunctional. Hey, I can dream :)

Re: Americans think they live in a democracy. But workplaces are small tyrannies

#58

Post by aaronhoffman »

bigzen wrote: post #33
aaronhoffman wrote: post #13

The article mentions that the industrial revolution has made it too difficult for small business to compete with large companies. To solve that problem, let's eliminate all taxes for everyone making less than $100k. No income tax, no payroll tax, no property tax, no sales tax, no...

I personally am drawn to this idea. $100k seems arbitrary though. I would like to see it adjusted for the COL of an average American family. Would you happen to have any reading material or studies related to this tax scheme?

You're absolutely right, I pulled $100k out of the air for it's nice-roundedness...

I don't have any reading material on it unfortunately, no. I'm mostly libertarian, so https://mises.org/ maybe?

Re: Americans think they live in a democracy. But workplaces are small tyrannies

#59

Post by TheCoelacanth »

convivialdingo wrote: post #45

A bit off topic, but I think it speaks to the more general issues that voters (as employees) have little say in the laws which govern their workplaces. The notion that America is currently a functioning Democracy is still a bit up in the air for me. Americans in general have little factual policy knowledge, and for the few issues that do get fairly well covered there is a strong politicization which verges on propaga…

In a democracy, shouldn't the middle class get their preferred outcome far more often than the rich since their are far more of them? If the rich get their preferred outcome even just as frequently as the middle class do, they have way more power than they would in a pure democracy.

Re: Americans think they live in a democracy. But workplaces are small tyrannies

#60

Post by dragonwriter »

TheCoelacanth wrote: post #59
convivialdingo wrote: post #45

A bit off topic, but I think it speaks to the more general issues that voters (as employees) have little say in the laws which govern their workplaces. The notion that America is currently a functioning Democracy is still a bit up in the air for me. Americans in general have little factual policy knowledge, and for the few issues that do get fairly well covered there is a strong politicization which verges on propaga…

In a democracy, shouldn't the middle class get their preferred outcome far more often than the rich since their are far more of them? If the rich get their preferred outcome even just as frequently as the middle class do, they have way more power than they would in a pure democracy.

> In a democracy, shouldn't the middle class get their preferred outcome far more often than the rich since their are far more of them?

Even in theory in a democracy, outcomes are not democratically chosen, actions (at some level, which may merely be choice of representative) are; therefore, those who have more resources to devote to understanding the relationship between actions and outcomes, and to understanding other actors preferred outcomes to craft propaganda tying preferred actions to other actors preferred outcomes will tend to get their preferred outcomes more often than others.

Post reply on HN