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Building the XNU kernel on macOS Sierra

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Re: Building the XNU kernel on macOS Sierra

#51

Post by nickpsecurity »

unixhero wrote: post #25
mikalv wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Haha, well it's not only X11, but it's one of the main reasons. Other reasons are that for my usage and work, it just "works", no hours of configuration in dotfiles. Also it's convenient as a cross platform developer, since I can just crosscompile to Linux and Windows(mingw) via Docker. However, without the Mac, you'll have to break some licenses with a hackintosh. I think the project is cool, but in work related sit…

Yeah. Linux is not like that any more. Try Linux Mint. The only configuration you will do is to enter your username and password.

And then again when their site gets subverted and you have to reinstall since you might have a rootkitted binary. I loved Mint for its incredible usability. Just can't recommend a supplier whose security was that bad.

Re: Building the XNU kernel on macOS Sierra

#52

Post by mikalv »

unixhero wrote: post #25
mikalv wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Haha, well it's not only X11, but it's one of the main reasons. Other reasons are that for my usage and work, it just "works", no hours of configuration in dotfiles. Also it's convenient as a cross platform developer, since I can just crosscompile to Linux and Windows(mingw) via Docker. However, without the Mac, you'll have to break some licenses with a hackintosh. I think the project is cool, but in work related sit…

Yeah. Linux is not like that any more. Try Linux Mint. The only configuration you will do is to enter your username and password.

Fully aware of it, but I prefers the custom (e.g awesomewm and fluxbox), my problem is just that I don't have time for all that fun anymore :)

Re: Building the XNU kernel on macOS Sierra

#53

Post by mikalv »

swiley wrote: post #41
mikalv wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Haha, well it's not only X11, but it's one of the main reasons. Other reasons are that for my usage and work, it just "works", no hours of configuration in dotfiles. Also it's convenient as a cross platform developer, since I can just crosscompile to Linux and Windows(mingw) via Docker. However, without the Mac, you'll have to break some licenses with a hackintosh. I think the project is cool, but in work related sit…

Kdrive isn't bad if you don't mind 100% framebuffer X (which is fast enough to watch videos, run vim, play old videogames and emulators etc)

Never heard of Kdrive, thanks for the tip! I will check it out for sure.

Re: Building the XNU kernel on macOS Sierra

#54

Post by mikalv »

zymhan wrote: post #48

OpenDNS in my office is blocking access to the site because of "malware". I can't tell if that's a legitimate warning, or it being paranoid about what else is on the site.

Hahaha, yes I just found out my own comany's firewall does the same. I suspect it's the hex domain :)

Online services says it's clean and I know how to secure my own webserver/services :) https://sitecheck.sucuri.net/results/0xcc.re

Re: Building the XNU kernel on macOS Sierra

#55

Post by mikalv »

nickpsecurity wrote: post #49
mikalv wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yea personally I'm mostly fascinated with the semi microkernel architecture. I don't really mind that the rest is closed. And yea, I've suspected they lost some good people after seeing all the new security issues in the kernel the past years. If only wayland was more mature, and the Linux world would have put down X11 once and for all, I would be back on Linux a long time ago :)

The merging of Mach with UNIX was a mistake given it was one of the slowest, over-complicated microkernels. Far as I'm aware, they'd prefer to remove Mach but it's a big job at this point that might affect their ecosystem a lot. If you are interested in open microkernels, I encourage you to look into L4 family (eg OCL4 or OKL4) since they're far more advanced than Mach-based designs. Minix 3 does one with NetBSD user…

I've been playing a bit around with L4 kernels and some more of Minix 3 from before. Genode seems nice but never had the opportunity to test it yet.

The rest was all new for me, thanks for the information :)

Re: Building the XNU kernel on macOS Sierra

#56

Post by pjmlp »

littlestymaar wrote: post #42
pjmlp wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Professional game developers have a different opinion regarding graphics APIs, even those that have been strong OpenGL apologists in the past: "John Carmack: Its still OpenGL, although we obviously use a D3D-ish API [on the Xbox 360], and CG on the PS3. Its interesting how little of the technology cares what API you're using and what generation of the technology you're on. You've got a small handful of files that car…

> AAA studios already adopted Metal on their engines Genuine question : Do AAA studio really care about metal ? Is gaming on Mac a thing now ?

Not only gaming is a thing on Mac, more than on GNU/Linux or even BSD combined, it is also a thing on iPhone, iPad and Apple TV, all with Metal support.

Also Apple's augmented reality is based on Metal, and they had Valve on stage praising it at WWDC, with native support on SteamVR SDK.

Finally, many of the frameworks that made use OpenGL, including the window manager, are now working on top of Metal.

Re: Building the XNU kernel on macOS Sierra

#57

Post by pcwalton »

pjmlp wrote: post #32
jcelerier wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Metal is fine and supported by all relevant engines, thanks. thanks for the laugh

Professional game developers have a different opinion regarding graphics APIs, even those that have been strong OpenGL apologists in the past: "John Carmack: Its still OpenGL, although we obviously use a D3D-ish API [on the Xbox 360], and CG on the PS3. Its interesting how little of the technology cares what API you're using and what generation of the technology you're on. You've got a small handful of files that car…

I do graphics professionally, and I would much prefer to just see Vulkan everywhere. Metal has essentially nothing to recommend itself over Vulkan; it's just a worse API. Things I've dealt with:

- Tessellation is weird in Metal, as you don't have hull shaders and have to wedge it into the compute pipeline.

- I haven't found a good way to disable multisampling while rendering into a multisample texture, something that is trivial in OpenGL. This can be useful for various effects.

- Switching command encoders is really slow.

- There is no good way I have found to be able to get good timing information inside the app as opposed to the profiler. The info is available on iOS, but not macOS. This is important for telemetry, etc.

Studios are obviously just going to choose the API that's supported on the platforms they're shipping to. Usually there's only one "blessed" API, and so that's the one they pick. It doesn't say anything about the quality of those APIs.

Re: Building the XNU kernel on macOS Sierra

#58

Post by pcwalton »

pjmlp wrote: post #56
littlestymaar wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> AAA studios already adopted Metal on their engines Genuine question : Do AAA studio really care about metal ? Is gaming on Mac a thing now ?

Not only gaming is a thing on Mac, more than on GNU/Linux or even BSD combined, it is also a thing on iPhone, iPad and Apple TV, all with Metal support. Also Apple's augmented reality is based on Metal, and they had Valve on stage praising it at WWDC, with native support on SteamVR SDK. Finally, many of the frameworks that made use OpenGL, including the window manager, are now working on top of Metal.

Apple is using Metal because it's a modest improvement over OpenGL (in some areas; it's a regression in others) and, more importantly, their OpenGL implementation is extremely buggy.

You haven't said anything about Vulkan vs. Metal, and you can't, because Vulkan is a better API for the reasons I described upthread.

Re: Building the XNU kernel on macOS Sierra

#59

Post by pjmlp »

pcwalton wrote: post #58
pjmlp wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not only gaming is a thing on Mac, more than on GNU/Linux or even BSD combined, it is also a thing on iPhone, iPad and Apple TV, all with Metal support. Also Apple's augmented reality is based on Metal, and they had Valve on stage praising it at WWDC, with native support on SteamVR SDK. Finally, many of the frameworks that made use OpenGL, including the window manager, are now working on top of Metal.

Apple is using Metal because it's a modest improvement over OpenGL (in some areas; it's a regression in others) and, more importantly, their OpenGL implementation is extremely buggy. You haven't said anything about Vulkan vs. Metal, and you can't, because Vulkan is a better API for the reasons I described upthread.

I can't say anything good about Vulkan, because I am not going to buy a new laptop or a Google Pixel just to try it out.

Re: Building the XNU kernel on macOS Sierra

#60

Post by kjs3 »

pjmlp wrote: post #12
mikalv wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yea personally I'm mostly fascinated with the semi microkernel architecture. I don't really mind that the rest is closed. And yea, I've suspected they lost some good people after seeing all the new security issues in the kernel the past years. If only wayland was more mature, and the Linux world would have put down X11 once and for all, I would be back on Linux a long time ago :)

I came to realize that for those of us that actually care about graphics programming, nice GUI tools and UI/UX, Linux world will never be the place to be. The majority of devs are happy having a replicate of PDP-11 experience, maybe with twm and tools like xdvi or xv. Those that try to improve the overall desktop experience closer to other desktop systems, get bashed as needless fluff.

X didn't (doesn't) run on PDP-11s.
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