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Tesla's Long-Awaited, Lower-Priced Model 3 to Arrive Friday

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Re: Tesla's Long-Awaited, Lower-Priced Model 3 to Arrive Friday

#51

Post by Retric »

FireBeyond wrote: post #26
jacquesm wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Tesla’s Model S outsells Mercedes S-Class, Porsche Panamera, and BMW 6/7 Series combined in the US Those cars are not even in the same class, of course Tesla would outsell them. Compare sales of the model S in Germany with the C class, BMW 3 (or maybe the 5) and just forget about Porsche. Other cars you could compare it with are larger sedans of the premium variety Japanese manufacturers (Toyota -> Lexus, Nissan ->…

Not sure why you're downvoted, you're right. Tesla S starts at $57K. - Mercedes S starts at $97K - Panamera starts at $86K - 6/7 series start at $81K/$83K. You're right, you're looking at mid-range Audis and the like. But having been in a 2016 S and several Audis the interior quality is hugely different. The Audi feels great, and the S felt like my eight year old Altima. I don't want to sound like a hater - the Tesla…

That's just sticker price, many of those cars get sold at a a minor price premium to a ~30% discount.

Which is why the monthly sales are all over the map:

http://carsalesbase.com/us-car-sales-data/porsche/porsche-pa...

  2016
  January 336 February 293 March 334 April 371 
  2017
  January 35 February 28 March 554 April 1098

Re: Tesla's Long-Awaited, Lower-Priced Model 3 to Arrive Friday

#52

Post by vvanders »

zippergz wrote: post #45
Robotbeat wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet, by all appearances, the Model S /is/ cutting into S-class sales. Whether the experience is exactly the same or not is irrelevant. If you're a luxury car maker, you're already feeling this; it's not a hypothetical.

I'd be very curious to see actual data about this. I'm not sure one way or the other. Most of the Model S owners I know are people who previously would not have considered buying a car in that price range, so they weren't really potential S Class customers. It's amazing to me how many friends who used to drive Toyotas or at most low-end BMWs and Audis are now spending nearly $100K to get a Tesla. At the same time, th…

Someone over on the Tesla forums was aggregating S/7 series sales from public records and they was a significant and sustained drop since the S was introduced.

Re: Tesla's Long-Awaited, Lower-Priced Model 3 to Arrive Friday

#53

Post by gutnor »

giobox wrote: post #18
Robotbeat wrote: post #8

20,000 cars per month by December is an incredibly ambitious goal. If achieved, they have a very good chance of getting their 500,000 cars in 2018, something that virtually everyone (including myself) thought could not be done. So two things: 1) If you don't have a dog in this race, wait and see if Tesla really does achieve these goals. Outrageous claims require strong evidence. 2) If you're a competitor, now is not…

I've always wondered to what extent "traditional" luxury car makers have one hand tied behind their backs competing with Tesla in the electric market thanks to still having to support "legacy" technology like the internal combustion engine. The major German marques often seem to be investing in shared platforms for next generation models that support combustion and electric drive options, but it strikes me that a pla…

They build platform across a lot of models shared between various brands of the same group. So what they lose supporting gas and electric, they (could) win it back with a diversity of models and form factors.

Also it is not before the next generation of cars (i.e. 10 years) that the bulk of their sales could really be mainly electric. (the world is not like California. A lot of people interested like me simply can't get an electric car - not even because of lifestyle, just because of infrastructure) In the meanwhile they will need to provide hybrid or simpler hybrid.

And traditional constructor are experienced at designing roomy interiors. Designing a single interior across a range is probably more a win than a loss.

BTW it seems that nowadays every constructor has some model ready to commercialise either in 2018 or 2019. Will be interesting to see if they really can hit their target and what Tesla competition is really looking like. Interesting times.

Re: Tesla's Long-Awaited, Lower-Priced Model 3 to Arrive Friday

#54

Post by jacquesm »

nardi wrote: post #34
jacquesm wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Tesla’s Model S outsells Mercedes S-Class, Porsche Panamera, and BMW 6/7 Series combined in the US Those cars are not even in the same class, of course Tesla would outsell them. Compare sales of the model S in Germany with the C class, BMW 3 (or maybe the 5) and just forget about Porsche. Other cars you could compare it with are larger sedans of the premium variety Japanese manufacturers (Toyota -> Lexus, Nissan ->…

Seems much closer in price to your parent's list than your list, though the reality is it's somewhere in the middle: 3 Series - $33,450 (-34,550) C Class - $39,500 (-28,500) 5 Series - $51,200 (-16,800) Model S - $68,000 6 Series - $77,600 (+9,600) Porsche Panamera - $78,100 (+10,100) 7 Series - $81,500 (+13,500) S Class - $96,600 (+28,600) Edit: With the US federal tax credit of $7,500, it comes down closer to the b…

If you make the same comparison for the EU the differences will be much (much!) larger due to various taxes. Especially for cars with larger displacements. In NL for instance the cheapest Panamera is 109000 Euro.

Re: Tesla's Long-Awaited, Lower-Priced Model 3 to Arrive Friday

#55

Post by raisedbyninjas »

nardi wrote: post #34
jacquesm wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Tesla’s Model S outsells Mercedes S-Class, Porsche Panamera, and BMW 6/7 Series combined in the US Those cars are not even in the same class, of course Tesla would outsell them. Compare sales of the model S in Germany with the C class, BMW 3 (or maybe the 5) and just forget about Porsche. Other cars you could compare it with are larger sedans of the premium variety Japanese manufacturers (Toyota -> Lexus, Nissan ->…

Seems much closer in price to your parent's list than your list, though the reality is it's somewhere in the middle: 3 Series - $33,450 (-34,550) C Class - $39,500 (-28,500) 5 Series - $51,200 (-16,800) Model S - $68,000 6 Series - $77,600 (+9,600) Porsche Panamera - $78,100 (+10,100) 7 Series - $81,500 (+13,500) S Class - $96,600 (+28,600) Edit: With the US federal tax credit of $7,500, it comes down closer to the b…

GP is also using the same marketing trick used by Apple. Sell huge numbers of an anemic product lineup and trumpet those figures against single models from market leaders whose aggregate sales across 20 models dwarf sales of 2 models from Tesla/Apple.

Re: Tesla's Long-Awaited, Lower-Priced Model 3 to Arrive Friday

#56

Post by chaostheory »

narrowtux wrote: post #20
jjallen wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The top-speed is really a prime concern for choosing your car? Interesting. Do you live in a no-speed-limit jurisdiction, such as Germany?

I do live in Germany, and it is a concern for me. The VW e-up costs 22k EUR and has a top speed of 130 km/h, the BMW i3 full electric version w/o range extender costs about 35k EUR and has a top speed of 150 km/h. This performance would be fine if I bought a car under 10k EUR but not for this price.

Just adding more data:

The 2017 Volt (Opel Ampera-e) has a top speed of about 160 km/h / 100 mph for 35k EUR, $33k USD

Pretty sure the Model 3 can acheive this, if not be faster, since this is just the norm and not 'fast'.

Re: Tesla's Long-Awaited, Lower-Priced Model 3 to Arrive Friday

#57

Post by jackmott »

zippergz wrote: post #45
Robotbeat wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet, by all appearances, the Model S /is/ cutting into S-class sales. Whether the experience is exactly the same or not is irrelevant. If you're a luxury car maker, you're already feeling this; it's not a hypothetical.

I'd be very curious to see actual data about this. I'm not sure one way or the other. Most of the Model S owners I know are people who previously would not have considered buying a car in that price range, so they weren't really potential S Class customers. It's amazing to me how many friends who used to drive Toyotas or at most low-end BMWs and Audis are now spending nearly $100K to get a Tesla. At the same time, th…

I know of at least one tesla owner who was definitely someone would would buy an S Class

Re: Tesla's Long-Awaited, Lower-Priced Model 3 to Arrive Friday

#58

Post by babyrainbow »

vvanders wrote: post #52
zippergz wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd be very curious to see actual data about this. I'm not sure one way or the other. Most of the Model S owners I know are people who previously would not have considered buying a car in that price range, so they weren't really potential S Class customers. It's amazing to me how many friends who used to drive Toyotas or at most low-end BMWs and Audis are now spending nearly $100K to get a Tesla. At the same time, th…

Someone over on the Tesla forums was aggregating S/7 series sales from public records and they was a significant and sustained drop since the S was introduced.

Discussion around something similar...

https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/6dj815/tesla_m...

Re: Tesla's Long-Awaited, Lower-Priced Model 3 to Arrive Friday

#59

Post by Brakenshire »

jonas21 wrote: post #6

> Musk also tweeted that production would increase "exponentially," with 100 cars in August, more than 1,500 in September and 20,000 per month in December. Finally, someone who says things will grow exponentially and actually means it!

I just worry how many cars they'll be producing in 5 years time.

Re: Tesla's Long-Awaited, Lower-Priced Model 3 to Arrive Friday

#60

Post by fps »

Robotbeat wrote: post #33
giobox wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've always wondered to what extent "traditional" luxury car makers have one hand tied behind their backs competing with Tesla in the electric market thanks to still having to support "legacy" technology like the internal combustion engine. The major German marques often seem to be investing in shared platforms for next generation models that support combustion and electric drive options, but it strikes me that a pla…

Yes, a whole bunch of sunk costs. The internal combustion engine is fantastically cheap for what it entails. It's as complicated as a bloody rocket engine, but an entire vehicle can be bought for a few months California rent. It took literally trillions to engineer it to what we have today. Companies don't want to abandon that investment. And yet... That's what they'll have to do. The electric car will be so much che…

As far as I can tell, the internal combustion engine and related components are not the most expensive part of a modern car to build or maintain. Suspension, braking, tires, electronics, drivetrain and interior features are the parts of a car that typically increase the cost the most. They're also the parts that get the most wear and tear, and the parts that are the most expensive to replace. And they're all still present on a fully electric car. A modern internal combustion engine will last the life of every other component of the vehicle with basically no maintenance, other than an oil change every 5-10K miles. And if it ever does fail, you can get a complete replacement engine for less than the cost of a suspension system or a few hours of a shop diagnosing a computer issue.

Tesla was recently replacing $10,000 electric motors on their Model S because they were wearing out under normal usage - some customers got 3 or 4 of them, if I remember correctly. http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1101153_two-thirds-of-ea...

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