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Not Just Mike Pence. Americans Are Wary of Being Alone with the Opposite Sex

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Re: Not Just Mike Pence. Americans Are Wary of Being Alone with the Opposite Sex

#51

Post by speedplane »

jlebar wrote: post #38

I wrote this when the Pence story broke in March. >>>>>>>>> I wanted to write this yesterday, but thankfully I didn't, because Jia Tolentino did a much better job than I would have in the New Yorker. http://www.newyorker.com/culture/jia-tolentino/mike-pences-m... What bothers me about Pence's "no meals alone with women who aren't my wife" and "no working late with female aides" rules isn't that he's trying to protect…

If it's done properly, there are alternatives. Instead of having drinks one-on-one, you invite a mutual friend, or you go for lunch, coffee, or a jog. I don't think these alternatives are natural to most people, but I do think they can be taught. In good organizations, they are.

Re: Not Just Mike Pence. Americans Are Wary of Being Alone with the Opposite Sex

#52

Post by Inconel »

dijit wrote: post #6

I seem to be the only person in the comments that agrees with the article. But I'm not American. I will absolutely not be alone with a female as a male if I can help it. One accusation of ill-doing on my part and my life is essentially over. Conversely; as a male a female is quite likely weaker than I am, thus the risk to them is that I cause them injury or force them to do something. Which is a horrendous thought an…

I know it's not polite to ask about downvotes on HN but I'm also unsure why you where so quickly downvoted. I personally don't feel the same way you do, but I also don't think you said anything rude or outlandish.

As a small counter to your post though, I've read some articles recently talking about the importance of general social networking and one on one mentoring in some professions with the point being made that if men in power in these professions adopt a stance of not being alone with women, this could impact women's ability to progress professionally compared to their male peers. I think it's important that if you adopt such a stance, and are in a position of power, that you find ways to mitigate the unintended effect it may have on women.

I actually have a male friend who was accused of harassment by a female subordinate that was later decided in his favor. Being gay, happily married, and from what I know of him a very good employee and boss, surely helped his case. After this incident he stopped all outside of work one on one meetings, but he did so with both men and women so no one is adversely impacted by his choice.

Re: Not Just Mike Pence. Americans Are Wary of Being Alone with the Opposite Sex

#53

Post by vacri »

prostoalex wrote: post #15
cbanek wrote: post #4

I'm really amazed that the data is that close for "having a work meeting." (25% of women say inappropriate vs 22% of men) That's a lot higher than I was expecting. It makes me wonder why as well. Is it just "inappropriate" (what I imagine Mike Pence thinks)? Does one side think the other side is trying to do something inappropriate or is trying to lead into something? At least in many jobs I've had, 1:1's were basica…

"At least in many [white-collar office-with-glass-door easy-access-to-legal-and-HR-departments harassment-training-mandated-as-part-of-the-orientation coworkers-not-prone-to-gossip] jobs I've had."

I've worked in retail, in warehouses, in call centres, as a medical technician, and now in tech, and never with a half-decent HR dept. At no point in any of my jobs was there a norm for people to be wary of 1:1 meetings with the opposite gender.

Re: Not Just Mike Pence. Americans Are Wary of Being Alone with the Opposite Sex

#54

Post by dijit »

vacri wrote: post #46
dijit wrote: post #6

I seem to be the only person in the comments that agrees with the article. But I'm not American. I will absolutely not be alone with a female as a male if I can help it. One accusation of ill-doing on my part and my life is essentially over. Conversely; as a male a female is quite likely weaker than I am, thus the risk to them is that I cause them injury or force them to do something. Which is a horrendous thought an…

> Remind me never to air my concerns in public again. If losing a couple of imaginary internet points is all it takes to retract your comments... how strongly do you hold those opinions in the first place? Downvotes just mean disagreement. If more people disagree than agree with you, well, welcome to the ghosted text. But so what? It just means that your opinion is a minority opinion amongst the people who cared enou…

I use downvotes to signify that content was off-topic or against the site guidelines. I am guilty of upvoting due to agreement or if someone put a lot of effort into a articulate response.

But. While I might be a minority with these beliefs, shouldn't people be offering me counter-arguments instead of downvoting? It feels bad to not have a dialog. "You're wrong imo" is not a very useful reply; and that's all you get with downvotes.

Re: Not Just Mike Pence. Americans Are Wary of Being Alone with the Opposite Sex

#55

Post by home_boi »

cbanek wrote: post #50
prostoalex wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"At least in many [white-collar office-with-glass-door easy-access-to-legal-and-HR-departments harassment-training-mandated-as-part-of-the-orientation coworkers-not-prone-to-gossip] jobs I've had."

I'm not sure I see what point you are trying to make? It's been shown, especially recently, that HR and legal are not necessarily on the side of employees wronged by sexism in the workplace. Harassment training is an ongoing joke. Or are you saying in other jobs men and women are less likely to work together alone, so people might think it's more inappropriate?

> It's been shown, especially recently, that HR and legal are not necessarily on the side of employees wronged by sexism in the workplace.

Nor are they on the side of employees accused of sexism. They will do whatever is in their best interest. Which can mean both ignoring sexism or wrongfully firing the employee with no proof.

The cost of ignoring sexism is a potential PR nightmare. The cost of wrongfully terminating the accused employee is maybe a low 7 figure wrongful termination suit at the worst.

Re: Not Just Mike Pence. Americans Are Wary of Being Alone with the Opposite Sex

#56

Post by cbanek »

sillysaurus3 wrote: post #49
cbanek wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hope you're joking, but if you're not, that sounds like a horrible idea to me. Being a woman, and having had 1:1's with male managers for pretty much my entire tech career, I've never heard of this happening. I don't know what spiritual vulnerabilities you are talking about, but in terms of ethics if you can't work with a female employee, you shouldn't be a manager. You're basically telling the person that you can'…

It's not really about trust. It's just business and mutual protection. I'm not sure which way to feel on the issue, but it's hard to deny that the recently reported harassment happened while both the victim and the abuser were alone together, or shared a private channel of communication. If you eliminate this aspect, you might eliminate the harassment along with it. That seems like a positive outcome. In practice, th…

If you're worried about mutual protection, it would seem that you don't trust the person.

You also seem to imply that harassment is more about having opportunities to harass, rather than a person wanting to commit harassment and waiting for the right opportunity. If someone wants to do something, I figure they could be very patient in waiting for their time.

Also, how would you know until everyone is already uncomfortable? The only way it sounds like to fix that is to trust no one, ever, and have everyone travel in groups of at least 3?

Re: Not Just Mike Pence. Americans Are Wary of Being Alone with the Opposite Sex

#57

Post by cbanek »

home_boi wrote: post #55
cbanek wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure I see what point you are trying to make? It's been shown, especially recently, that HR and legal are not necessarily on the side of employees wronged by sexism in the workplace. Harassment training is an ongoing joke. Or are you saying in other jobs men and women are less likely to work together alone, so people might think it's more inappropriate?

> It's been shown, especially recently, that HR and legal are not necessarily on the side of employees wronged by sexism in the workplace. Nor are they on the side of employees accused of sexism. They will do whatever is in their best interest. Which can mean both ignoring sexism or wrongfully firing the employee with no proof. The cost of ignoring sexism is a potential PR nightmare. The cost of wrongfully terminatin…

Exactly, HR and legal are there to protect the business, not the employees.

They only protect the employees when it could harm the business.

Re: Not Just Mike Pence. Americans Are Wary of Being Alone with the Opposite Sex

#58

Post by throwawayable »

mc32 wrote: post #22
Spivak wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll speak up with an example from a man's perspective; it has nothing to do with attraction or religion, it's just not worth the risk. If I'm one-on-one with a woman and a misunderstanding makes her feel uncomfortable or threatened and she accuses me of misconduct or sexual harassment I'm at an enormous disadvantage without any witnesses. When even being accused could be career ending it's best to bring someone else…

I understand your PoV. I would say it would be extremely rare for a woman (or man) to make baseless accusations from uncertain interpretations. People who bring forward accusations are typically people who've had the same untoward thing done to them repeatedly. That said, one has to acknowledge there are genuinely malicious people --but they typically have a pattern and it will not be their first time making false ac…

So when there is no evidence one way or the other, you're saying you'd believe the accuser. This pretty much supports the grandparent's statement.

I know of a woman who has made a successful career of extorting "settlements with mutual confidentiality agreements" out of a succession of positions as a PA to multiple high level executives, with each exec settling for tens of thousands to avoid this person leveling damaging public accusations against them. She can get away with it because there is a general consensus that without evidence, the "victim" should be believed and that men are probably guilty.

Re: Not Just Mike Pence. Americans Are Wary of Being Alone with the Opposite Sex

#59

Post by speedplane »

aiyodev wrote: post #20

I'm surprised so many men in here are comfortable being alone with women. You've given another person the power to put you in prison and destroy your entire life at any time without any evidence. All they have to do is make the accusation. You'll lose your job. You'll probably lose your family. You'll probably lose your freedom. It's not worth the risk.

The vast vast majority of people would never fabricate something so heinous. For the very tiny percentage of people who would, it wouldn't matter if you were ever alone with them or not. Your concerns are unfounded.

Re: Not Just Mike Pence. Americans Are Wary of Being Alone with the Opposite Sex

#60

Post by visarga »

lqdc13 wrote: post #32
RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #14

Sex is one of the greatest things both now and in the past of bringing out stupid behavior in people. The number of people who have destroyed their wealth, jobs, and/or reputations is staggering. It is not just of matter of more training or consequences. Even with such punishment as being impaled alive http://www.executedtoday.com/2017/03/15/1718-stepan-glebov-l... or with the threat of eternal damnation, people stil…

As dumb as it is, it's also the only reason you are alive. Some people see their main goal in life as to find the best partner they can. Sex is closely related IMO.

> it's also the only reason you are alive

Yep, sex is the recursive part of a function that is life.

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