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House panel votes to split Air Force, create new U.S. Space Corps

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51–58 of 58 posts

Re: House panel votes to split Air Force, create new U.S. Space Corps

#51
post #31

Why, in this day and age, is the US military organized along a structure (Army, Navy/Marines) based on the Elizabethan English military organization (I recognize the USAF was spilt off to avoid a battle between Army and Navy)? For that matter why are dress uniforms based on obsolete English gentlemen's dress? A bit of rethink based on objective/mission seems well overdue. The 1940s reorganization that lead to the Dep…

> Why, in this day and age, is the US military organized along a structure (Army, Navy/Marines) based on the Elizabethan English military organization (I recognize the USAF was spilt off to avoid a battle between Army and Navy)?

The USAF was actually split off largely due to the efforts of the bomber mafia to promulgate strategic bombing as a useful method of war. The problem is that strategic bombing doesn't work, and never has, which kind of blunts the purpose of the USAF except as providing largely tactical support for the Army and Marines (note that the Navy runs their own carrier planes, and the Army and Marines also have their own close air support wings).

It's also disingenuous to suggest that the US military is largely based on Elizabethan military terms. The entire concept of the staff system only dates back to roughly Napoleonic Wars (and is most associated with the effective Prussian military). But even beyond that, the US military is largely organized in operational terms under unified (cross-service) commands based on geographical theater, a system that originates in WWII and is pretty much unique to the US (although, to be fair, it's the only country that has the need to work under such a system; however, similar concepts like the Joint Chiefs of Staff don't seem to be particularly widespread in the world).

Re: House panel votes to split Air Force, create new U.S. Space Corps

#52
post #13

Sounds like somebody at USAF Space Command wants a promotion. This seems decades late. The USAF has no manned space capability. The U.S. Government once owned the Space Shuttles. They had astronauts. The USAF once had a Space School. That's all gone. Now, they just buy commercial rocket launches. If anything, the reorganization the USAF needs is to lose the close air support mission, and the A-10 Warthogs, to the Arm…

>If anything, the reorganization the USAF needs is to lose the close air support mission, and the A-10 Warthogs, to the Army.

The Army wouldn't take the A-10s if they were offered.[0]

>doesn't want to get involved with smaller fixed-wing aircraft for close air support.

But they have[1]. An OA-X demonstration is scheduled for August, of which they're looking to field an off-the-shelf plane.

[0]: http://www.military.com/daily-news/2015/02/25/army-not-inter... [1]: http://www.defensenews.com/articles/air-force-leaders-confir...

Re: House panel votes to split Air Force, create new U.S. Space Corps

#53

Meetings and sub-committee hearings on Space Command... but no time for the same on healthcare... Not trying to start a discussion, just noting the irony.

National defense is a constitutionally mandated function of the federal government.

"Healthcare" is not.

Re: House panel votes to split Air Force, create new U.S. Space Corps

#54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The organization of the US military really should be mission-based rather than some weird afoot-afloat-aloft separation. There's no particular reason why air superiority fighters, long range bombers, aerial refueling tankers, and airdrop cargo haulers should all be under the same command just because they all fly. Clearly, two of those are for logistics, and two are for force projection. I suspect that the existence…

Interesting how this mirrors the debate in many corporations between functional organization (eng/sales/UX/marketing/accounting/HR) vs. product organization (Search/Ads/Chrome/Android/GMail/etc.) The military is organized functionally. Recently, basically every major company other than Apple has found that product organization yields better results, because each individual product can better respond to competitive th…

Regina Dugan ran DARPA like a startup - or at least like an innovation incubator:

https://www.fastcompany.com/1784731/regina-dugans-innovative...

JSOC (Joint Special Operations Command) is a cross-functional mission-driven organization:

https://dupress.deloitte.com/dup-us-en/deloitte-review/issue...

Re: House panel votes to split Air Force, create new U.S. Space Corps

#55
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Simple Prisoner's Dilemma - you know that the other nations have signed a treaty against militarizing space, but why would you take anyone else at their word? The answer is, you don't - you try as hard to militarize the hell out of space before anyone else, because you assume everyone else is doing the same.

The other answer is like the Nuclear Non-proliferation treaty and START I,II. Intrusive verification by international bodies with penalties for non-compliance. It hasn't been perfect, but so far the world hasn't ended.

Sorry by START II, I meant New Start. START II was cancelled before it went into effect in retaliation for George W. Bush cancelling the anti-ballistic missile (ABM) treaty.

Re: House panel votes to split Air Force, create new U.S. Space Corps

#56
post #36
post #31

Why, in this day and age, is the US military organized along a structure (Army, Navy/Marines) based on the Elizabethan English military organization (I recognize the USAF was spilt off to avoid a battle between Army and Navy)? For that matter why are dress uniforms based on obsolete English gentlemen's dress? A bit of rethink based on objective/mission seems well overdue. The 1940s reorganization that lead to the Dep…

> For that matter why are dress uniforms based on obsolete English gentlemen's dress? This is getting way off topic, but can you give an example? The Navy officer service-dress blue uniform is basically a business suit with gold-colored buttons and gold sleeve stripes; it's been pretty much the same for probably a century now. [0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniforms_of_the_United_States_...

Indeed, service dress and full dress are essentially frozen in the same time as the business suit. Essentially we are still under the influence of the Prince Regent's buddy Beau Brummell. At least the necktie ("cravat") has an actual military origin. But the split into three dress uniforms still apes ancient sumptuary laws and the (thankfully obsoleted) structure of officers coming from the noble and gentle classes and the infantry/sergeants from the lower classes.

Then again the whole white wedding / white (instead of seed) cake weddings come from Victoria.

But it cracks me up to see, say, North Korean generals in uniforms that really just look like Regency clothing!

Re: House panel votes to split Air Force, create new U.S. Space Corps

#57
post #31

Why, in this day and age, is the US military organized along a structure (Army, Navy/Marines) based on the Elizabethan English military organization (I recognize the USAF was spilt off to avoid a battle between Army and Navy)? For that matter why are dress uniforms based on obsolete English gentlemen's dress? A bit of rethink based on objective/mission seems well overdue. The 1940s reorganization that lead to the Dep…

> Why, in this day and age, is the US military organized along a structure (Army, Navy/Marines) based on the Elizabethan English military organization (I recognize the USAF was spilt off to avoid a battle between Army and Navy)? The USAF was actually split off largely due to the efforts of the bomber mafia to promulgate strategic bombing as a useful method of war. The problem is that strategic bombing doesn't work, a…

Yes, the French Levée and the Prussian general staff were modernizing shocks to the system, no question.

But the idea of a separate Navy and Army really go back to a pre-Enlightenment period when the Navy was centrally financed by the crown (and piracy) while the armies were raised territorially. Hence the Navy has aircraft and ground troops while the army has aircraft and watercraft. and, of course turf.

It's also a ridiculous abstraction when you try to build a single "cross-corps" aircraft (F35) and see each service claiming different service-specific requirements when really you do indeed have different mission requirements, some of which are common to multiple services.

I certainly understand the value of incrementalism but I consider it absurd that Cromwell would recognize the structure of today's US military even though its missions would be practically inconceivable to him.

Re: House panel votes to split Air Force, create new U.S. Space Corps

#58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No other modern military force has a separate "air force", because having it separate only complicates things when conducting a conventional ground war. Besides the US: Turkey, Syria, Russia, Israel all off the top of my head have air force and ground army (along with, at least, a navy) separate under one "Armed Forces" command. What modern air forces operate as part of the army, rather than separately (as most nav…

The big one is China, where all the services are technically branches within the People's Liberation Army: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People's_Liberation_Army

That really doesn't sound any different than the US, it's just different naming. In the US, all four services are branches within the "Department of Defense". So US DOD = China PLA.

To properly compare, you need to look at whether the air force has the same level of autonomy from the ground army as the navy does. If it does, it's just like the US. If not, it's not.

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