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More Android phones than ever are covertly listening for inaudible sounds in ads

arstechnica.com

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Re: More Android phones than ever are covertly listening for inaudible sounds in ads

#51

Post by nom »

pcl wrote: post #5
nom wrote: post #3

I wouldn't be surprised if Google, Apple or Amazon are doing (or going to do) something similar. It doesn't create much traffic at all, a couple of bytes is enough and they can be tacked on to the data stream without anyone noticing. Someone should build an ultrasonic detector that can recognize these kind of packets and have a look how wide spread this technique already is. We could also need an ultrasonic jammer an…

If you're interested in exploring ultrasound in your environment, SpectrumView Plus is a great tool for the job. http://www.oxfordwaveresearch.com/products/spectrumviewapp/

Nice tool, thanks for the link!

However, we need someone to build an app that can detect ultrasonic FSK signals and log them / pop up a notification. I assume they use short bursts which makes looking at the spectrum constantly unfeasible.

Re: More Android phones than ever are covertly listening for inaudible sounds in ads

#52

Post by yehi »

izacus wrote: post #19

ArsTechnica unfortunately again misleads people due to limited expertise. On modern Androids (6.0+) accessing the microphone requires an explicit permission granted by user (just like on iOS). Furthermore, due to Doze mode implemented in 6.0 and expanded in 7.0 running these kind of services without notifying the user cleary (with permanent notification) has become pretty much impossible and unreliable. To run in bac…

One thing that Google really should do is allow a feature to temporarily give permissions or fake giving permissions. For example, I want to send my location on Whatsapp then I would want it to ask for permissions every time. Similar to how certain websites cannot access my microphone just because I let them do it once, neither should apps.

Re: More Android phones than ever are covertly listening for inaudible sounds in ads

#53

Post by scottlegrand2 »

blurbleblurble wrote: post #42

I've become totally superstitious (convinced, even) that phones are listening to more than just ultrasound. There have been too many uncanny situations where youtube or google have recommended results that were far too specific to the conversation happening moments before. For example, one time I was telling my girlfriend about fourier transformations, something she'd never heard of before. She typed "Fo" into her ph…

No common friends, but college girlfriend recommended as potential friend on Facebook is my creepiest data mining moment ever.

Re: More Android phones than ever are covertly listening for inaudible sounds in ads

#54

Post by anchpop »

scottlegrand2 wrote: post #53
blurbleblurble wrote: post #42

I've become totally superstitious (convinced, even) that phones are listening to more than just ultrasound. There have been too many uncanny situations where youtube or google have recommended results that were far too specific to the conversation happening moments before. For example, one time I was telling my girlfriend about fourier transformations, something she'd never heard of before. She typed "Fo" into her ph…

No common friends, but college girlfriend recommended as potential friend on Facebook is my creepiest data mining moment ever.

If she searched for you, it can make you show up in the recommended friends list

Re: More Android phones than ever are covertly listening for inaudible sounds in ads

#55

Post by pishpash »

vetinari wrote: post #23
rubatuga wrote: post #11

Why does android trust developers so much? Just lock down the apps already, and make microphone usage obvious.

Android doesn't trust developers. It trusts users - everything has to be disclosed and users have to agree. It is a open platform, not walled garden. We have https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dancing_pigs problem there.

Android trusts developers a hell of a lot more than users.

Re: More Android phones than ever are covertly listening for inaudible sounds in ads

#56

Post by anigbrowl »

izacus wrote: post #19

ArsTechnica unfortunately again misleads people due to limited expertise. On modern Androids (6.0+) accessing the microphone requires an explicit permission granted by user (just like on iOS). Furthermore, due to Doze mode implemented in 6.0 and expanded in 7.0 running these kind of services without notifying the user cleary (with permanent notification) has become pretty much impossible and unreliable. To run in bac…

If I understand you right, you're saying that this doesn't actually work most of the time - but not that people are not trying it.

Myself, I don't care about the fact that Google is 'failing' on this, because even if they fix all the problems you identify, the people exploit such approaches will find some other loophole to exploit or work around. The inevitable result: another arms race that doesn't create value for consumers.

What I care about is the recurring social problem of which this is just the latest instance: marketing/advertising folk deceiving consumers. If your business model relies on deception then you are a Bad Person, and this applies equally to those who dream up such schemes and those who implement them at the technical level.

The legal system does not move at the speed of software development, and so there are strong economic incentives to engage in such unethical behavior and move on before people catch on and organize themselves to litigate the issue or effectively regulate the behavior. It is time, therefore, to punish bad actors by more direct methods of retaliation, which necessarily involves inhibiting their ability to buy their way out of trouble by renting legal mercenaries.

Re: More Android phones than ever are covertly listening for inaudible sounds in ads

#57

Post by anigbrowl »

izacus wrote: post #34
cwyers wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nearly 2/3rds of Android phones that have accessed the Google Play store in the week leading up to May 2nd are not on Android 6 or later: https://developer.android.com/about/dashboards/index.html

I'm not sure what you're comment is trying to say - TARGETING a new API doesn't meant you don't SUPPORT an older API. It just determines backwards compatiblity behaviour. We currently release a product that supports Android 4.1 while targeting Android 7.1. Also this dashboard is hugely misleading for the HN audience - in western audiences (USA, Canada, EU, etc. - countries HN users are from) we're tracking ~10% devic…

Please don't use all caps on HN. Use an asterisk * at the beginning and end of the text you wish to emphasize to get italics.

Re: More Android phones than ever are covertly listening for inaudible sounds in ads

#58

Post by anigbrowl »

izacus wrote: post #38
anon1385 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you suggesting it's ok for non-western users to be tracked this way? Why would we ignore most of the world when discussing an issue like this?

I never said or claimed anything like that. Where did you get that idea?

anon1385 is a step ahead of you; s/he inferred it from your argument and is asking you to consider the implications thereof.

Re: More Android phones than ever are covertly listening for inaudible sounds in ads

#59

Post by cwyers »

izacus wrote: post #38
anon1385 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you suggesting it's ok for non-western users to be tracked this way? Why would we ignore most of the world when discussing an issue like this?

I never said or claimed anything like that. Where did you get that idea?

Then what were you claiming? Because I posted the worldwide stats and you called them misleading. Misleading who about what?

Re: More Android phones than ever are covertly listening for inaudible sounds in ads

#60

Post by voidz »

anigbrowl wrote: post #56
izacus wrote: post #19

ArsTechnica unfortunately again misleads people due to limited expertise. On modern Androids (6.0+) accessing the microphone requires an explicit permission granted by user (just like on iOS). Furthermore, due to Doze mode implemented in 6.0 and expanded in 7.0 running these kind of services without notifying the user cleary (with permanent notification) has become pretty much impossible and unreliable. To run in bac…

If I understand you right, you're saying that this doesn't actually work most of the time - but not that people are not trying it. Myself, I don't care about the fact that Google is 'failing' on this, because even if they fix all the problems you identify, the people exploit such approaches will find some other loophole to exploit or work around. The inevitable result: another arms race that doesn't create value for…

tl;dr "don't fix anything because of other bugs." Is that what you're saying? If so: that ship don't sail.
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