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Badly educated men have not adapted well to trade, technology or feminism (2015)

economist.com

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Re: Badly educated men have not adapted well to trade, technology or feminism (2015)

#51

Post by lhnz » 

  > It is inevitable that more men will earn less
  > than their female partners in years to come.
  > To pull their weight, they will have to do
  > more at home.
Will this actually work though?

Anecdotally, women seem less interested in partnering with men who make less money than them no matter what other benefits they provide.

I rarely hear of men breaking up with women because they weren't "ambitious enough" or weren't "their equals" however I hear this fairly frequently from women.

Hopefully as more women become the economic winners of their families they will fully accept the position of being the bread-winner instead of continuing to search for men that will 'be their equal' or outperform them. Until that happens men are going to continue to feel pressure to live up to outdated patriarchal ideals, with both winners and losers.

Re: Badly educated men have not adapted well to trade, technology or feminism (2015)

#52

Post by arkh »

arcanus wrote: post #27
ergothus wrote: post #11

I find the topic interesting, but the article looks to be doing a lot of guessing causation from results. I.e. In low-skilled jobs that are projected to have growth, women are more represented than men. It then wanders around different topics - effects on heterosexual relationship when "eligible" members of one sex are in low supply, etc. But I was most interested in that initial argument, and it wasn't given much su…

I largely agree. It lost me greatly when it stated, > Few women in rich countries now need a man’s support to raise a family. (They might want it, but they don’t need it.) I'm a man, and my wife is back to work after giving birth to our child. Raising a family seems to be a massively two person job. I have absolutely no idea how anyone can manage it alone and keep their sanity and not neglect their job and child. Bla…

> I have absolutely no idea how anyone can manage it alone

Not alone. The State (so, everyone paying taxes) is always here to help single parents.

Re: Badly educated men have not adapted well to trade, technology or feminism (2015)

#53

Post by panglott »

krath94 wrote: post #19

"Although there is no reason in theory why men could not become nurses or care-home assistants, few do." This is true, but why is it that the shortage of women in technology fields is attributed to them not being accepted or even forced out? Maybe this isn't the general attitude, but I have certainly heard people say that woman aren't in tech as much because they feel unwelcome, whereas when talking about men in thos…

It's possible that men feel unwelcome in female-dominated areas for the same reason women may in male-dominated areas: it can be intimidating to enter a group of people of the opposite sex, with their own norms and microaggressions and who feel entitled and encouraged to be there, when you have received numerous social signals that's weird for you to be there or even want to be there. Unless those people and institutions specifically welcome you in.

Re: Badly educated men have not adapted well to trade, technology or feminism (2015)

#54

Post by simias »

ams6110 wrote: post #37
krath94 wrote: post #19

"Although there is no reason in theory why men could not become nurses or care-home assistants, few do." This is true, but why is it that the shortage of women in technology fields is attributed to them not being accepted or even forced out? Maybe this isn't the general attitude, but I have certainly heard people say that woman aren't in tech as much because they feel unwelcome, whereas when talking about men in thos…

There is indeed a reason, that is women are naturally/biologically caretakers and nurturers. Women are more trusted and accepted as nurses and caregivers than men. Many women would be uncomfortable or refuse to have a male caregiver help bathe or dress them.

This "naturally/biologically" is the crux of the issue really, where does nature stop and society begin?

And even if nature biases one way or an other, does it explain the measured discrepancy completely? Am I to believe that there's basically a shortage of "nurturing" men, as there is a shortage of technically inclined women?

We also see that the proportions vary very significantly between countries, so clearly there's a societal factor at play, one way or an other.

So I don't really like these types of shortcuts, because clearly the most nurturing man is probably more so than the less nurturing woman. We should judge people on their own merit, not their gender, race or other factors.

Re: Badly educated men have not adapted well to trade, technology or feminism (2015)

#55

Post by jldugger »

krath94 wrote: post #19

"Although there is no reason in theory why men could not become nurses or care-home assistants, few do." This is true, but why is it that the shortage of women in technology fields is attributed to them not being accepted or even forced out? Maybe this isn't the general attitude, but I have certainly heard people say that woman aren't in tech as much because they feel unwelcome, whereas when talking about men in thos…

"they don't want to" can be expanded into a number of causal cultural factors:

- teachers, parents, advisors all too often say tech is not for women - daughters are rarely given personal computers at the same as sons - video games, an important gateway into programming, are primarily marketed at boys - we have very few living role models of expert women programmers

Many of these same arguments apply to men and nursing. The primary reason we don't talk much about it in terms of access to opportunity is that comparatively, nursing is yet another underpaid pink collar job. If nursing was a comparable opportunity to tech, there'd probably be more grousing about the cultural barriers of masculinity that inhibit fuller participation.

Re: Badly educated men have not adapted well to trade, technology or feminism (2015)

#56

Post by ams6110 »

thrownblown wrote: post #9
csours wrote: post #2

Poorly educated or badly educated? Badly educated would indicate that the education is based on incorrect facts or processes. Poorly educated would indicate that there may not be enough education, etc.

Paying attention is a skill that needs to be taught in school. It's hardly the fault of the student if the schools don't engage and challenge them. The American education system fed me lie after lie after lie. All public schools teach lies, some even don't even pretend and teach creationism.

The real problem is that public education for the last few decades has been focused on the college-bound student. If your background, family financial status, or academic record indicate that you are not going to college, you are a non-entity (possible exception if you are athletically gifted).

If you are not college-bound you get no real attention or guidance. You are not taught about entrepreneurship, trades, or other options that might be good for you. You are not taught about managing money, personal finance, the traps of high-interest credit debt, or anything else practical. It's assumed you'll put in your time and "graduate" (or simply drop out), get some menial job, and that's your life. Nobody spares ten seconds of thought on you if you are not college-bound.

Re: Badly educated men have not adapted well to trade, technology or feminism (2015)

#58

Post by maxlybbert »

justinzollars wrote: post #35
trendia wrote: post #4

I hoped reading this would provide insight, but instead it only offered some random eassywriter's disdain of people different from him/herself.

I work with a dude who is 50 from Michigan. It's amazing to hear stories of what an American lifestyle in the 70's and 80's was like. With 40,000 income he could buy a house, a vacation house in northern Michigan, a boat and two great vacations a year. Its hard to admit standards of living are decreasing. There is def a lot of blame to go around. I agree one should not be disdainful of people who are different. This…

That was before inflation. Using https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/CPIAUCSL , it looks like the CPI was 78 in January 1980, and 244.456 in February 2017 (the most recent data currently available). Meaning that $1 from 1980 would buy as much as $3.13 last February, and $40,000 in 1980 would be equivalent to $125,362 in February. Perhaps not enough for two homes and a boat, but pretty good income in most of the US.

Then again, there are plenty of caveats: the CPI overstates inflation, there are things on the market today that no amount of money could have bought in 1980, etc.

Re: Badly educated men have not adapted well to trade, technology or feminism (2015)

#59

Post by deelowe »

krath94 wrote: post #19

"Although there is no reason in theory why men could not become nurses or care-home assistants, few do." This is true, but why is it that the shortage of women in technology fields is attributed to them not being accepted or even forced out? Maybe this isn't the general attitude, but I have certainly heard people say that woman aren't in tech as much because they feel unwelcome, whereas when talking about men in thos…

I wonder how many people making these statements and doing these analysis have spent any significant amount of time with kids. Girls, in general, prefer social interaction, helping people, working as a group, etc... Boys, in general, prefer physical activity, constructing things, and admiring the fruits of their labor from afar.

This might not be the best characterization, but you get the point. I see this in very very young kids. It's innate. Again, these are generalities, but most who work with a lot of young kids understand these things. It's no surprise to me that as boys and girls become men and women we see these traits dominate employment trends. Girls tend to gravitate to fields that tie success (either academically or professionally) with social interaction, while boys gravitate to ones that rely more on demonstration of individual impact.

Sure, there's an element of group dynamics, xenophobia, etc... that influences this stuff, but I've never held the belief that this stuff is the root cause. Why are more men chefs/cooks? Because, they like making food/seeing what they've made. Why are more women waitresses? Because they like serving/interracting with people. It's not that complicated.

Re: Badly educated men have not adapted well to trade, technology or feminism (2015)

#60

Post by swang »

it is really interesting the automatic assumption of people in this thread, considering i'm guessing most didn't read past the first story about low-income men not finding work.

perhaps the use of the word feminism enforces an opinion right away regardless of what the article says.

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