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A Closer Look at North Korea’s Ullim Tablet

38north.org

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Re: A Closer Look at North Korea’s Ullim Tablet

#51

Post by devoply »

friedman23 wrote: post #48
IslaDeEncanta wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US dropped more bombs on North Korea than we dropped on all of Europe and Japan during WWII. Proxy wars between superpowers never work out well for the actual people affected, and we should not be so forgetful of that.

It worked out well for the South Koreans

It was no treat for anyone involved:

Number of Americans killed in the Korean War: 36,000

Number of Americans wounded in the Korean War: 105,000

Number of South Koreans killed in the Korean War: 415,000

Number of South Koreans wounded in the Korean War: 429,000

Estimated number of Chinese and North Koreans killed in the Korean War: 1,500,00013

I would like to hear more from historians as to what would have happened had the war never occurred. My guess is a united Korea would be in line as a periphery of China with their level of technology... with Kim Il Sung and his family long gone and irrelevant.

I would also like to add that Americans know nothing of modern war never actually having had to live through it or having to deal with its consequences on their livelihoods, economy, or psychology. War for Americans is stuff that happens to other people... where they send oblivious young men to fight who are usually forgotten as soon as they are sent off to protect "freedom".

Re: A Closer Look at North Korea’s Ullim Tablet

#52

Post by tstactplsignore »

linkmotif wrote: post #29
tstactplsignore wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Strong disagree. North Korea is a disastrous country run by a truly evil government. However, it does not perform the role you suggest. We merely look on it from the outside in, with all of our small and little prejudices, and selectively picked historical knowledge. From such a vantage point, authoritarian always seems wrong. From the outside, it's trivial to understand and trivial to criticize. From within, from a…

My grandfather was head of the main construction "trust" in Kiev and a member of the communist party. Thus he was head of all construction in the city. He was part and parcel of the system that all together constituted what really was rightfully called the Evil Empire. A true prison. Was he evil? No. For him it was his job. He had a passion for construction and building. But he did nothing to subvert the Soviet way o…

That's very interesting- Thanks for the response.

Re: A Closer Look at North Korea’s Ullim Tablet

#53

Post by abritinthebay »

djloche wrote: post #39

Total war against the whole Japanese Empire was completely morally justified in the same way that total war against Nazi Germany was.

In that it wasn't as such... but it was also totally understandable.

To use a German example: I don't think anyone would argue that the firebombing of Dresden was moral. It was effective... but that's not the same thing.

Of course... this is war we are talking about. So, morality is already about shades of grey.

Re: A Closer Look at North Korea’s Ullim Tablet

#54

Post by abritinthebay »

_nedR wrote: post #43
averagewall wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But what if they hadn't? Japan was invading most of Asia with mass killings along the lines of ISIS and the Nazis. Are you saying ISIS should also be left alone and America not try to stop them? Japanese civilians at the time weren't really innocent. The whole country was working for the war effort, mainly to kill other Asian people.

>Japanese civilians at the time weren't really innocent. Wow, Its fascinating, the mental gymnastics people perform to rationalise the atrocities their side perpetrates while in the same breath deploring the atrocities committed by the other side.

I think the people that say these things have a very poor understanding of what their own governments do in their name.

If they didn't they wouldn't paint with such a broad brush.

Re: A Closer Look at North Korea’s Ullim Tablet

#55

Post by allendoerfer »

_nedR wrote: post #43
averagewall wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But what if they hadn't? Japan was invading most of Asia with mass killings along the lines of ISIS and the Nazis. Are you saying ISIS should also be left alone and America not try to stop them? Japanese civilians at the time weren't really innocent. The whole country was working for the war effort, mainly to kill other Asian people.

>Japanese civilians at the time weren't really innocent. Wow, Its fascinating, the mental gymnastics people perform to rationalise the atrocities their side perpetrates while in the same breath deploring the atrocities committed by the other side.

That's what you get, when you give children an identity resolving around your moral high ground, you being the greatest, you bringing freedom to the world, praising veterans who defend you against constant threats (in itself a contradiction), having a romantic relationship with your flag and the list goes on and on.

You better not take that away, because what defines you if you do?

Re: A Closer Look at North Korea’s Ullim Tablet

#56

Post by dmos62 »

devoply wrote: post #51
friedman23 wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It worked out well for the South Koreans

It was no treat for anyone involved: Number of Americans killed in the Korean War: 36,000 Number of Americans wounded in the Korean War: 105,000 Number of South Koreans killed in the Korean War: 415,000 Number of South Koreans wounded in the Korean War: 429,000 Estimated number of Chinese and North Koreans killed in the Korean War: 1,500,00013 I would like to hear more from historians as to what would have happened h…

In a recent talk by Chomsky, he described US Air Force literature or rather documentation of the Korean conflict. Apparently the bombing was so thorough, they ran out of targets in North Korea. Not only military, but infrastructure and cities as well, as I recall. One of the impressive things about post '53 North Korea is that they did a complete rebuild.

Re: A Closer Look at North Korea’s Ullim Tablet

#57

Post by lucaspiller »

abalashov wrote: post #46
bdcravens wrote: post #44

Reading this the engineer in me was impressed at their thoroughness. I believe it's easy to fall into a trap of thinking of the North Korean government as grossly incompetent, and this isn't necessarily true. If these assumptions extend to Western leaders, it could one day have a disastrous result.

I do wonder where they source the talent and expertise with these platforms necessary to pull something like this off. I understand that's kind of a naive question—any functional state has sufficient resources to solve such problems for itself—but one does wonder. I can only assume there was extensive Chinese help. They definitely have the critical mass of engineering ecosystem for that sort of endeavour.

If you think about, the NSA, GCHQ, etc probably run similar software on their own devices to monitor employees and be able to trace back where any leaks came from. I wouldn't be surprised if there is a commercial company that sells this type of software.

Re: A Closer Look at North Korea’s Ullim Tablet

#58

Post by jl6 »

leggomylibro wrote: post #35

This is a terrifying manifestation of what technology makes trivially possible. This device: * Logs every app and web page that you open. * Keeps forensics on shared files based on hashes, to track networks of like-minded dissidents or individuals sharing similar files. * Refuses to open any files which are not signed by either the government, or the device which created the file. (e.g. photos can be viewed only on t…

And am I reading this article correctly when it say the Trace Viewer app is visible to the user, so they can see all this logging? That's the most terrifying bit.

Re: A Closer Look at North Korea’s Ullim Tablet

#60

Post by cyphar »

fluxem wrote: post #47
leggomylibro wrote: post #35

This is a terrifying manifestation of what technology makes trivially possible. This device: * Logs every app and web page that you open. * Keeps forensics on shared files based on hashes, to track networks of like-minded dissidents or individuals sharing similar files. * Refuses to open any files which are not signed by either the government, or the device which created the file. (e.g. photos can be viewed only on t…

So, basically Android? Except, you don't get shot in the back. With Android, it automatically syncs Contacts and photos to the "Cloud", unless you disable it. But, you cannot do it 100%, because it's turn on by default when you first sign in. Also, it's not a secret that Google logs your locations history.

As an aside, not all Android ROMs operate in that way. I'm currently using OmniROM with microG, and none of my information is linked to a Google account (specifically on this phone). All of my contacts and calendar are synced with my NextCloud server using DAVDroid, and I use AOSP or other FDroid-approved apps to access my email, contacts and calendar.

Now, all of that being said that's not to say that the current state of affairs is good (and there's still plenty of other problems) but it's disingenuous to ignore that you have a choice with Android and you don't in North Korea.

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