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German Tank Problem

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Re: German Tank Problem

#51

Post by ErrantX »

hartror wrote: post #50
ErrantX wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hitler made a tactical error delaying an invasion of the uk. That was a pretty important factor. I think there is absolutely no way you can attribute the winning of the war to any one thing; Turing, the RAF, Russian winter, the sea routes/convoys and more all contributed.

Why did I have to read down THIS far to find someone speaking this sense!

Thanks. Though I think, in fairness, not too many people are arguing that any one event actually won the war.

The problem, I think, is that it is very easy to look back and see how things "should" have gone differently. Hindsight is a bitch :) I know a few people who have started a sentence with the words "If I were Hitler I would have...", and you have to turn round and say yes. Any sane man in Hitlers shoes could have won the war. But Hitler was in Hitlers shoes, and he didn't.

And then there are those who are often forgotten when discussing of the war. For example what about the Australian contribution; the Japanese are known for being resilient, refusing to give ground under any circumstances. But the Aussies had the same attitude and theirs was one of the most successful armies in the war (even in all time I think). They harried the Japanese on a number of flanks, that arguably kept them at bay where otherwise they may have won (or prolonged even further) the Pacific war.

Then there is the more complex matter of things which would have lost the war. This usually ranges from the sublime to the ridiculous; with all sorts of theories. But often ignores simple things like, the U Boats could have got lucky and hit 3 or 4 convoys in a row. Logistically that could have won Germany the war as easily as anything else. It's simply impossible to predict.

A lot of Brits will argue that us holding out for those crucial few months was what won the war; I'm not entirely sure I disagree, it was certainly an extremely important thing. But so many people forget the country was full of US, French and other soldiers at the time; it was multi-national resilience. And, at the same time, the supply convoys kept us going, again a multi-national force.

At the end of the day my History teacher at school summed it up best:

You will meet all sorts of people who claim they won the war. But the truth is people won the war; lots of people from different nations pulling together in the same direction for once. It's a thing to be proud of. But also to be sad that it is only in the face of war and eradication we can truly band together like that

Re: German Tank Problem

#52

Post by ovi256 »

eru wrote: post #27
hugh3 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if it hadn't been for Enigma, and even if it hadn't been for the weather in Russia, I still don't think it's possible to construct a sensible scenario where the eventual outcome of the war is delayed by more than a few months. If VE day didn't come in May thanks to Turing, it would have come in August thanks to Oppenheimer.

Depends on which kind of facts you are prepared to alter. E.g. you could construct scenarios where Germany and the Soviet Union would not attack each other. Or where the U.S. would not enter the war.

  E.g. you could construct scenarios where Germany and the Soviet Union would not attack each other.
Easy, decisive German victory, because there would be no Eastern front. The Eastern Front was by far the largest, by whatever measure you care to choose: German casualties (more than half), total military casualties, total civilian casualties, materiel losses.

Historians are finally shedding the Hollywood propaganda and calling it "arguably the single most decisive component of World War II, eventually serving as the main reason for Germany's defeat." (Bellamy, Chris - Absolute War: Soviet Russia in the Second World War) Also see Wikipedia's page - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Front_(World_War_II)

Re: German Tank Problem

#53

Post by brc »

ErrantX wrote: post #51
hartror wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why did I have to read down THIS far to find someone speaking this sense!

Thanks. Though I think, in fairness, not too many people are arguing that any one event actually won the war. The problem, I think, is that it is very easy to look back and see how things "should" have gone differently. Hindsight is a bitch :) I know a few people who have started a sentence with the words "If I were Hitler I would have...", and you have to turn round and say yes. Any sane man in Hitlers shoes could h…

Upvote for the digger love :) Rats of Tobruk, Kokoda Track - some very hard young men involved there.

Re: German Tank Problem

#54

Post by arethuza »

nooneelse wrote: post #39
cema wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By a few snowflakes? And by tons of blood.

To any Russians reading this, as an American, I say, pay no attention to that little joke, please. I'm very grateful for the service of your forefathers. Our countries and our peoples have had our differences of opinions in the years since, but not so many differences and not so many years have passed that we have forgotten the price you paid. If ever another evil empire arises (that isn't one of the two of ours, I s…

Well said, my father was in the RAF in WW2 and he always made it very clear to me that in his opinion it was the bravery and sacrifices of the Soviet people that were mainly responsible for the defeat of the Nazis.

Of course, when I was younger and the Soviet's were the "evil empire" it was difficult for me to believe this. Now, having read a lot of military history, I share his view.

Re: German Tank Problem

#55

Post by rabidgnat »

tokenadult wrote: post #21
run4yourlives wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sometimes though, information denial is more of a pain in the ass than a gain. For all the intelligence directed at Nazi Germany during WWII, the outcome of the war was decided by a few Russian snowflakes, really.

the outcome of the war was decided by a few Russian snowflakes Not by cracking Enigma? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptanalysis_of_the_Enigma And remember, "the war" was also being fought in the Pacific, also with a spectacular imbalance in cryptology strength between the Allies and the Axis. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_naval_codes http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_%28cryptography%29 In general, code-bre…

Rejewski and Turing's Enigma cracking accomplishments were staggeringly significant, but they won nothing. If the Allies bombed every submarine that radioed a position, the Germans would have thrown the machines into the ocean. The Enigma let the Allies stack the overall war strategy in their favor, but it was far from over.

I do agree that brainpower won the war - our cryptology was stronger, resource management between the Pacific and European fronts was superb, and the Allies had a knack for picking battles and battlefields where they could excel

Re: German Tank Problem

#56

Post by balding_n_tired »

InclinedPlane wrote: post #44
run4yourlives wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sometimes though, information denial is more of a pain in the ass than a gain. For all the intelligence directed at Nazi Germany during WWII, the outcome of the war was decided by a few Russian snowflakes, really.

BS. Sure, the Russian winters harmed the German war machine greatly, but it's not as though that alone was the sole determiner of the outcome of the war. Even had the winters been milder the Russian forces would still have taken a heavy toll on the Germans and were nearly guaranteed to win that conflict by benefit of logistics alone. Moreover, even had Russia fallen to Germany the American/UK military might by 1945 w…

The UK military might was pretty strained by 1944. It was with great reluctance that the British agreed to an invasion of France in 1944.

Re: German Tank Problem

#57

Post by Symmetry »

gametheory wrote: post #33
eru wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's more interesting to look at alternative histories for World War I, in my opinion. Because the parties involved weren't as clearly `good' or `evil'.

the thing is though, WWI was mostly static trench warfare. There wasn't much that could "go" differently. I guess the US could have never joined

Actually people tend to really overestimate how important trenches were to the stalemate. Sure, it took a lot of effort to break through a trench line but both sides were perfectly capable of doing it when they could devote enough resources. The problem was that railroads meant that the mobility of the defenders was always much greater than the mobility of the attackers and telegraphs meant that the abilty of the defenders to coordinate was much greater than the ability of the attackers to coordinate. The internal combustion engine and radio changed this when WWII rolled around.

There were also very many places where things could have turned out differently. For instance, if the Germans had stuck to the original Schlieffen plan and managed to outflank the allies they might very well have captured Paris right at the start.

Re: German Tank Problem

#58

Post by eru »

cema wrote: post #42
euccastro wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IANAR, but if I was I'd be offended by the comment on the snowflakes and vindicated by the recognition that many people gave their lives to defeat Germany.

I am a Russian, but I was not at all offended. I just feel that the topic is a bit too serious for an offhand joke.

Yes, it probably is too serious. And the Soviets were about as disgusting as the Nazis [1]. (Not to mention how the Chinese communists turned out.)

War makes strange bedfellows.

[1] They were still brave soldiers--probably on all sides.

Re: German Tank Problem

#59

Post by eru »

arethuza wrote: post #54
nooneelse wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To any Russians reading this, as an American, I say, pay no attention to that little joke, please. I'm very grateful for the service of your forefathers. Our countries and our peoples have had our differences of opinions in the years since, but not so many differences and not so many years have passed that we have forgotten the price you paid. If ever another evil empire arises (that isn't one of the two of ours, I s…

Well said, my father was in the RAF in WW2 and he always made it very clear to me that in his opinion it was the bravery and sacrifices of the Soviet people that were mainly responsible for the defeat of the Nazis. Of course, when I was younger and the Soviet's were the "evil empire" it was difficult for me to believe this. Now, having read a lot of military history, I share his view.

Evil and brave don't contradict each other.

Re: German Tank Problem

#60

Post by cabalamat »

tokenadult wrote: post #21
run4yourlives wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sometimes though, information denial is more of a pain in the ass than a gain. For all the intelligence directed at Nazi Germany during WWII, the outcome of the war was decided by a few Russian snowflakes, really.

the outcome of the war was decided by a few Russian snowflakes Not by cracking Enigma? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptanalysis_of_the_Enigma And remember, "the war" was also being fought in the Pacific, also with a spectacular imbalance in cryptology strength between the Allies and the Axis. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_naval_codes http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_%28cryptography%29 In general, code-bre…

What decided the war in the Pacific was that the USA had vastly more industrial capability than Japan. Even if Japan's leaders had made all the right decisions, and America's leaders done everything wrong, America would still have won any protracted war between the two countries.
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