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Physicists demonstrate new way to violate local causality

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Re: Physicists demonstrate new way to violate local causality

#51
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you like the double slit experiment, you'll probably like Feynmann's "motivation" of the path integral in quantum field theory: Suppose you take the double slit (plate with two holes in it), and you start adding more holes. Of course the particle will go through all of them, but with less probability the further they are off-axis. We can also add more than one plate, and the particle will go through all possible c…

That connection between slits in the infinite limit and path integrals is really fascinating. I've read of lot of Feynman, but never that. Where does he talk about it?

I'm actually not sure, off the top of my head, but I think it's from his book "Quantum Mechanics and Path Integrals"; he also used it in lectures IIRC.

Re: Physicists demonstrate new way to violate local causality

#52
post #21

Going meta here, speaking from the perspective of a software engineer with a great interest for physics. There are a lot of terms I do not fully understand in this article. Can you recommend an application that would allow me to select for example the words "distant particles can be correlated in ways that are impossible for classical objects" and find out what lead to that discovery? Or what does "Bell inequality" r…

> what does "Bell inequality" really mean Some stuff is just hard to understand. You can make analogies, like talking about two people hiding a colored ball in their hand and one of them showing it later, but these are not truly helpful in really understanding the issue. For that you need a bit of math. One physicist explained this really nicely, saying that because we live in the macroscopic world we have a certain…

Our intuitions about macro stuff is really bad, or at least the intuition of people not steeped in Newtonian mechanics is really bad. Gallilean relativity is deeply unintuitive to many physics-naive people, let alone Newtonian mechanics. There's a reason Aristotelian mechanics lasted so long (okay, also the lack of a real scientific method, but still).

To demonstrate, ask a random person these questions:

If I stand on an airplane and jump, do I land where I started, further back, or further forward, relative to the plane?

if I whirl a ball on a string clockwise around my head and let go, does (neglecting vertical motion) the ball travel

A) curving counterclockwise B) curving clockwise C) in a straight line

Re: Physicists demonstrate new way to violate local causality

#53
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> what does "Bell inequality" really mean Some stuff is just hard to understand. You can make analogies, like talking about two people hiding a colored ball in their hand and one of them showing it later, but these are not truly helpful in really understanding the issue. For that you need a bit of math. One physicist explained this really nicely, saying that because we live in the macroscopic world we have a certain…

Our intuitions about macro stuff is really bad, or at least the intuition of people not steeped in Newtonian mechanics is really bad. Gallilean relativity is deeply unintuitive to many physics-naive people, let alone Newtonian mechanics. There's a reason Aristotelian mechanics lasted so long (okay, also the lack of a real scientific method, but still). To demonstrate, ask a random person these questions: If I stand o…

"If I stand on an airplane and jump, do I land where I started, further back, or further forward, relative to the plane?"

I would say, that most people would answer correctly, that you would not land on the same place, but probably be blown away far backwards from air friction (even though they would just call it wind).

Re: Physicists demonstrate new way to violate local causality

#54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Our intuitions about macro stuff is really bad, or at least the intuition of people not steeped in Newtonian mechanics is really bad. Gallilean relativity is deeply unintuitive to many physics-naive people, let alone Newtonian mechanics. There's a reason Aristotelian mechanics lasted so long (okay, also the lack of a real scientific method, but still). To demonstrate, ask a random person these questions: If I stand o…

"If I stand on an airplane and jump, do I land where I started, further back, or further forward, relative to the plane?" I would say, that most people would answer correctly, that you would not land on the same place, but probably be blown away far backwards from air friction (even though they would just call it wind).

I was imprecise: I'm not talking wing-walkers, I mean standing inside a plane, where wind is hopefully nonexistent

Re: Physicists demonstrate new way to violate local causality

#55
post #28

Legitimate scientists have rejected local causality as the mechanism to explain spooky quantum actions at a distance for some time now. Of course when something is false there will be multiple ways to prove it, but giving a new way doesn't really teach us anything new

> explain spooky quantum actions

Ugh. Please don't give more life to the meme of "spooky" quantum mechanics. It's mostly propagated by popular science outlets trying to make physics seem weirder than it is.

Re: Physicists demonstrate new way to violate local causality

#56
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The structure of the argument is, "We stood up a strawman and knocked it down," which sounds pretty weak. Weaker than "I don't understand what the paper says, only read a high level layman summary, not sure even what what the experiment was for, but I'm gonna piss on it anyway"? Even assuming what you already describe, the ability to show bi-locality as a new lower bound above which locality constraints apply, is v…

It's amazing how so many people on the internet feel so confident in their own intellectual abilities that they can read something that they don't understand and dismiss it as if it's non-important.

A lot of science news is sensationalist nonsense spun out of university press departments and that the most overhyped stuff also tends to get the most coverage. I think it's actually fair to look at something you may or may not understand fully and if your gut feeling says "this doesn't seem important", discount its importance significantly. In this case, OP was even explicitly asking whether or not someone more knowledgable agreed with their asssessment.

Re: Physicists demonstrate new way to violate local causality

#57
post #55
post #28

Legitimate scientists have rejected local causality as the mechanism to explain spooky quantum actions at a distance for some time now. Of course when something is false there will be multiple ways to prove it, but giving a new way doesn't really teach us anything new

> explain spooky quantum actions Ugh. Please don't give more life to the meme of "spooky" quantum mechanics. It's mostly propagated by popular science outlets trying to make physics seem weirder than it is.

Failure of local causality does seem rather "spooky". How is it not weird?

Re: Physicists demonstrate new way to violate local causality

#58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"If I stand on an airplane and jump, do I land where I started, further back, or further forward, relative to the plane?" I would say, that most people would answer correctly, that you would not land on the same place, but probably be blown away far backwards from air friction (even though they would just call it wind).

I was imprecise: I'm not talking wing-walkers, I mean standing inside a plane, where wind is hopefully nonexistent

Hm ... and then you expect people would say, they would land backwards? I think allmost everybody would get it right ...

Re: Physicists demonstrate new way to violate local causality

#59
It's shocking to me no one has written a physics game engine based on observation and waveform collapse.

I believe there's a 5000 line genre buster just waiting to be written, using a simple SDF renderer and the wave equation. Please, someone beat me to it I have other things to write first.

Polygons are not allowed, only fields.

Re: Physicists demonstrate new way to violate local causality

#60
post #28

Legitimate scientists have rejected local causality as the mechanism to explain spooky quantum actions at a distance for some time now. Of course when something is false there will be multiple ways to prove it, but giving a new way doesn't really teach us anything new

Einstein, in the famous EPR paradox paper[1] used quantum mechanics (then fairly new) to show that it predicted some truly unexpected behaviour that we now call entanglement, but which Einstein referred to as "spooky action at a distance" (This is the source of the word "spooky" in this context, which has been picked up on by new-age nuts). Einstein didn't think entanglement was real at this time, but that QM's prediction of entanglement showed that QM was broken or incomplete in some way. No method was then proposed of testing whether or not Einstein was right (it was likely beyond the technical capabilities of the time).

John Stewart Bell came up with with a theorem[1] that would be developed into experimental tests that showed what Einstein thought was an error in QM was actually observable. It's worth noting that closing all possible loopholes in experimental tests of Bell inequalities is difficult and elusive. The consensus is that QM is valid and entanglement does indeed exist, but there remains room for a tiny amount of doubt. Note: This is doubt the way scientists see it. i.e. A reason to perform further experiments. Theories can never be proven true, but teasing out every nuance and conceivable way in which they can be wrong, and testing them, is what makes theories accepted and useful. QM has stood up to enough tests that it's now a very well established theory. However, continuing to test QM is not useless. Searching for new ways in which well established theories can be wrong is how we found QM in the first place!

Note that QM does not say what, philosophically, entanglement is or explain the mechanism for how non-local correlations propagate. There are other theories that have attempted to explain this, but none have been successful so far in being both correct and, more importantly, testable.

There have been other inequalities experimentally tested in addition to Bell inequalities, such as Leggett inequalities[3]. To your understanding, these would not be interesting because they don't "teach us anything new". This is false. The question about QM and entanglement isn't as straight forward as a binary "yes it exists" vs "no it doesn't". There exist subtleties. Different inequalities have indeed enhanced our understanding of entanglement and proven useful in practical applications such as quantum computing and quantum cryptography. I haven't had time to dig into the work linked to here, but to dismiss it out of hand is not reasonable. The press release (to be taken with a grain of salt given the usual failings of science journalism) does suggest a novel approach that could be of practical use.

[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EPR_paradox [2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell%27s_theorem [3]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leggett_inequality

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