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Theranos Agrees to Pay $4.65M in Arizona Refunds

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Re: Theranos Agrees to Pay $4.65M in Arizona Refunds

#51
post #5

To my disgust, the biggest thing most people seem to take away from it is "Yup, that's what happens when a woman is in charge of a business." I'm a woman. I am fine with her burning. But, geez, I hate the idea that there is lava-like splash back spattering all other women in the world who are trying to be taken seriously.

I think when this broke, her connection to Hillary and the Clinton Foundation kept being played. Also during that same week, news broke that Marissa Mayer hid the huge yahoo data breech from users for years and purposefully didn't take ethical actions addresssing known vulnerabilities. These are three of the most powerful self made women all of whom were heavily publicized for years. The anti-Clinton sentiment along with valid criticism against Holmes and Mayer very well could have burgeoned into an anti-women sentiment.

As for the sexism, I felt like it was more of a backlash against the unrelenting positive press Holmes received for years, right or not partly due to her gender. Every time someone commented on why they thought something was wrong with Theranos they were drowned out by voices telling them to stop being sexist and you want her to fail due to her gender. Justified or not, plenty were happy to see her fail after all the praise she had recieved and I am not surprised at all if some of the blowback was sexist.

That being said, the majority of the discussion was anti-Theranos though I do agree with you there were a fair bit of anti-woman backlash though like I said much of it I feel was prompted by the positive praise she received.

Re: Theranos Agrees to Pay $4.65M in Arizona Refunds

#52

The story of Theranos makes me think about where the "great filter" lines for startups are. My prior company - who I was with from ~20 people to the current 300+ - has been going through some shakeups that make me wonder. This adds to my thinking. I'd have thought that both were past those lines - hundreds of people, multiple offices? Seems like it'd be solid at that point. The common factor is that both have yet to…

The filter line is typically execution risk, which is to say that once you've demonstrated that people will pay enough money for the product that you can fund the business, growing the company to the point where it is net cash flow positive flips the switch.

The thing about Theranos was, as we found out, that they had yet to prove their fundamental thesis which was that you could do a useful number of diagnostic tests with a small amount of blood to the same confidence levels as the same test done the existing way. Fundamentally they could not show that to be true.

So in a more critical (or perhaps skeptical) investing environment, they should have stalled out several years ago when they couldn't demonstrate to new investors that they had a viable blood diagnostic process[1]. But for what ever reason that didn't happen.

[1] And yes there are stories that they simply lied about what was happening.

Re: Theranos Agrees to Pay $4.65M in Arizona Refunds

#53
post #5

To my disgust, the biggest thing most people seem to take away from it is "Yup, that's what happens when a woman is in charge of a business." I'm a woman. I am fine with her burning. But, geez, I hate the idea that there is lava-like splash back spattering all other women in the world who are trying to be taken seriously.

I don't know why the rest of YC is downvoting and claiming this isn't the case. If you search previous Theranos threads, you will find questionable comments extrapolating a blanket view on women in tech.

Re: Theranos Agrees to Pay $4.65M in Arizona Refunds

#54
post #5

To my disgust, the biggest thing most people seem to take away from it is "Yup, that's what happens when a woman is in charge of a business." I'm a woman. I am fine with her burning. But, geez, I hate the idea that there is lava-like splash back spattering all other women in the world who are trying to be taken seriously.

I'm sorry this is getting downvoted so heavily, but there's a legitimate point here about the way things are talked about here. When Uber breaks the law and does really bad things and endangers people's lives, it's questionable at best. It's fighting outdated regulations that haven't kept up with the times, artificial monopoly busting, etc.

Theranos tries to apply the same kinds of tactics, and people are literally calling for Holmes to go to jail.

If you don't think there's a gender variable about how this is reported and perceived, you're nuts.

Most of you in this thread are approaching this the same way my ancient dad talks about women getting involved in the war effort during WW2.

Are women able to be as good at being men as men are? No? Then they have no place in x.

The conversation typically ends there because we have all these set phrases that we use to protect ourselves from our biases. "Decisions are decisions. Doesn't matter who makes them." Yeah right. It does matter who makes them, fellas. Marissa Mayer eliminates work from home at yahoo. The world freaks out. Jeff Bezos does the same thing at amazon: he's smart. This is good for the culture.

Or people say, "Code doesn't care who you are. It's either good or it's not. Doesn't matter who wrote it." Which is also bullshit because whether or not it compiles is the bare minimum for getting code into a review to begin with. It's everything after it compiles that's subjective.

The problem here is the implicit standard we have ingrained in us. When we interview a guy, it makes sense. Are you as good at being me as I am? Yes? Great. Hired.

The issue should be obvious by now, but I'll make clear: if you only hire people exactly like you, you only get products that are exactly like what you want.

Diversity in the workplace isn't about diversity because it's fair. It's because we need it to produce real products that people want to use. It's because being a man in the world isn't the only thing worth doing, and we need to have our minds changed and our perspectives altered some times.

We are refusing to value anything different from ourselves. Which stupid. The idea that any of us really know it all is really fucked in the head.

I currently work at a company with a female CEO. She makes different decisions and places priorities than any male I've ever met would.

And I could not be happier. It's totally different from any job I've ever had in the tech world, and it's fantastic.

you people downvoting the thread need to grow up and take a closer look at yourselves and your lives. You are a big part of the problem with gender and racial bias in our industry.

Re: Theranos Agrees to Pay $4.65M in Arizona Refunds

#55
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree with your takeaway, but I agree with the point that much of the talk about Theranos is really about gender. That company just doesn't get covered without people talking about how Elizabeth Holmes is, in fact, a woman, and how she tries to channel a Steve Jobs persona, and how it's not working. If Travis Kaladick or whatever his name is were running the company, the narrative would be very different. I don'…

How would the narrative be different? Travis Kalanick has been absolutely shit on by the press, and the HN crowd in general, and what he has done is arguably much less egregious than what Elizabeth Holmes has done.

One of the differences is that men (as a group) get vastly more positive press about actual accomplishments. One insidious form of sexism, racism etc is the degree to which we mostly talk about certain groups when there is something negative to say.

Re: Theranos Agrees to Pay $4.65M in Arizona Refunds

#56
post #5

To my disgust, the biggest thing most people seem to take away from it is "Yup, that's what happens when a woman is in charge of a business." I'm a woman. I am fine with her burning. But, geez, I hate the idea that there is lava-like splash back spattering all other women in the world who are trying to be taken seriously.

I don't know why the rest of YC is downvoting and claiming this isn't the case. If you search previous Theranos threads, you will find questionable comments extrapolating a blanket view on women in tech.

Thank you.

Re: Theranos Agrees to Pay $4.65M in Arizona Refunds

#57
post #50
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why is this such a terrible thing to express that so many people need to come down on me for feeling this way? If you were, say, a black guy concerned about some black guy getting enormous bad press and how that impacts blacks, would that merit this kind of dismissive pile on and massive downvoting? I'm not sure exactly how to respond to that. I'm slightly confused I guess as to why you feel people are coming down…

And you are one of about two people here even trying to understand my point of view. Most of the other responses are simply aimed at shooting me down in one manner or another. This is the essence of the problem: I am not even supposed to voice my opinion or feeling. The vast majority of sexism (racism, etc) is not due to blunt and obvious exclusion or targeting. It is due to this sort of pattern of behavior. Jessica…

> And you are one of about two people here even trying to understand my point of view. Most of the other responses are simply aimed at shooting me down in one manner or another. This is the essence of the problem: I am not even supposed to voice my opinion or feeling.

I'm curious about why you feel this way. In reading the other responses to your original comment, it is clear that most respondents disagree with you. However, just based on my own experience with HN, they don't seem particularly aggressive or dismissive in tone (relative to any other contentious HN thread).

The reason I bring this up isn't to invalidate your perception. It's because I think that, sometimes the (legitimate) feeling of persecution can lead to seeing it even where it's not, and that can be toxic, especially in an anonymous or pseudonymous environment like this. It's easy to fall into the trap of thinking people here are rejecting your opinion because of your gender (in part because sometimes they are!). But it really doesn't seem to me like that's what's happening here. To the extent that people are disagreeing, they are (again, to my reading) asking you to substantiate your position - not telling you to shutup or dismissing you. They just want to know why you believe what you do.

> I do think her gender contributed to the Theranos debacle. I have commented on that before and I have blogged about it. But that aspect of how that plays out is Verboten. We cannot discuss it. This, too, is a form of sexism and is part of the problem.

But that's what we're doing here. I'm asking you to comment on it. I think that's what everyone is doing. We want to hear your opinion in its full detail. And yes, that means people will respond to it and attack it. But, speaking for myself at least, that isn't done with malice or dismissiveness, its part of the process of coming to shared understanding. I hold lots of controversial opinions, and I love to fight it out with people on HN and other places about them, because that's how I learn and develop my own ideas. I wouldn't be half as intelligent or thoughtful as I am without that dialectic. It's something I value immensely, and it's why I participate in discussions like these. But in order to glean that benefit, you have to be willing to put your opinion out there and have it torn down, sometimes even viciously so.

> I appreciate your participation here in this thread. It is a breath of fresh air amidst what is an otherwise mostly negative experience for me.

As do I yours. My hope is that you will participate in these discussions and provide your alternative viewpoint. It can be difficult if you're not emotionally oriented towards this kind of conflict[1], but I think it is essential to have differing views here. But those differing views will never truly get heard if people like you don't follow through on their expression. That is to say, if you pack up your opinion and go home, we'll just be here echoing the same view of this situation we already had. So I would encourage you to engage with everyone that's responded to you, be dismissive right back to them if you feel like it. But substantiate your position - cite articles, quote interviews, and so on. Make your case, and I think you'll find that people will be receptive to it. Or maybe you'll decide that we're right about this one, and there is no sexism here. But IMO the only losing move is not to play.

[1] This sounds like a female stereotype, so I should clarify. Certain people (like me) love argument. I am energized by it. If people are dismissive of me or think my opinion is stupid, i'm only more encouraged to make them look stupid with my airtight counterargument. This is, as far as I can tell, just an emotional orientation people have or don't have. Some people don't like this sort of conflict at all and it causes them to shut down completely. It is of course a stereotype that this is more predominant in women than men, but I certainly know women that love to argue as much as any man that I know.

Re: Theranos Agrees to Pay $4.65M in Arizona Refunds

#58
post #5

To my disgust, the biggest thing most people seem to take away from it is "Yup, that's what happens when a woman is in charge of a business." I'm a woman. I am fine with her burning. But, geez, I hate the idea that there is lava-like splash back spattering all other women in the world who are trying to be taken seriously.

I don't know why the rest of YC is downvoting and claiming this isn't the case. If you search previous Theranos threads, you will find questionable comments extrapolating a blanket view on women in tech.

So it happened? I mean geez, "welcome to the internet," but are any of them credible? It seems just as unfair to extrapolate a blanket view on commentary about Theranos if it's just random shitposters.

Re: Theranos Agrees to Pay $4.65M in Arizona Refunds

#59
post #51
post #5

To my disgust, the biggest thing most people seem to take away from it is "Yup, that's what happens when a woman is in charge of a business." I'm a woman. I am fine with her burning. But, geez, I hate the idea that there is lava-like splash back spattering all other women in the world who are trying to be taken seriously.

I think when this broke, her connection to Hillary and the Clinton Foundation kept being played. Also during that same week, news broke that Marissa Mayer hid the huge yahoo data breech from users for years and purposefully didn't take ethical actions addresssing known vulnerabilities. These are three of the most powerful self made women all of whom were heavily publicized for years. The anti-Clinton sentiment along…

At what point does positive press become "unrelenting"?

This is just stupid.

Are you saying that Theranos was over-hyped?

If that's what you mean then just say it.

This is really survivor bias talking. If something actually succeeds at delivering the moon, then there's no unrelenting positive press. There was an accurate depiction of what was going on. It's only in hindsight that you can call it hype or unrelenting.

And the schadenfreude is doubletime now because not only did the hype fail, but she was also a woman.

Re: Theranos Agrees to Pay $4.65M in Arizona Refunds

#60
post #5

To my disgust, the biggest thing most people seem to take away from it is "Yup, that's what happens when a woman is in charge of a business." I'm a woman. I am fine with her burning. But, geez, I hate the idea that there is lava-like splash back spattering all other women in the world who are trying to be taken seriously.

I'm sorry this is getting downvoted so heavily, but there's a legitimate point here about the way things are talked about here. When Uber breaks the law and does really bad things and endangers people's lives, it's questionable at best. It's fighting outdated regulations that haven't kept up with the times, artificial monopoly busting, etc. Theranos tries to apply the same kinds of tactics, and people are literally c…

>Theranos tries to apply the same kinds of tactics, and people are literally calling for Holmes to go to jail.

The difference is Holmes was endangering people's health and lives.

Didn't Mayer build a nursery next to her office?

>you people downvoting the thread need to grow up and take a closer look at yourselves and your lives. You are a big part of the problem with gender and racial bias in our industry.

Seriously? Calling out people as sexist when it's not there doesn't help.

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