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Brains Sweep Themselves Clean of Toxins During Sleep (2013)

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Re: Brains Sweep Themselves Clean of Toxins During Sleep (2013)

#51

Post by nkrisc »

bjornsing wrote: post #40

I'd be very surprised if it turns out that there's not a major "computational" element to sleep. Sure, it may be difficult to circulate fluid through a waken beings brain, but I think evolution could have managed. If the "computational resource" is needed for something else though (like running backprop over your neural networks or something :P)... That to me is the only reasonable explanation for the huge evolutiona…

But evolution doesn't "manage" anything. Evolution often plateaus at "good enough." I think this is the risk in the computer metaphor for the brain. Computers have designers that try to optimize them, brains do not.

Re: Brains Sweep Themselves Clean of Toxins During Sleep (2013)

#52

Post by bcherny »

jwilliams wrote: post #11

A related and quite recent piece of research - Stimulating toxin cleanup via brain stimulation using pulsed light. Has been used to treat Alzheimer symptoms in mice models. Last I heard was being fast-tracked to humans. http://news.mit.edu/2016/visual-stimulation-treatment-alzhei... "This treatment appears to work by inducing brain waves known as gamma oscillations, which the researchers discovered help the brain sup…

I wonder if a laptop/phone screen is capable of producing this specific frequency of pulsed light..

Edit: FWIW: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uaiiJsfgP58

Re: Brains Sweep Themselves Clean of Toxins During Sleep (2013)

#53

Post by lr4444lr »

nsxwolf wrote: post #28
pnathan wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, "toxic" and "toxins" are incredibly vague. I loathe the use of those words, as they are both scary and nearly meaningless.

When I see "toxins" I just stop reading. I assume the article is an ad for a juice cleanse.

It begs the question: is a few days of codeine or valium the brain equivalent of a "lemon juice / cayenne" cleanse?

Re: Brains Sweep Themselves Clean of Toxins During Sleep (2013)

#54

Post by wahern »

bjornsing wrote: post #40

I'd be very surprised if it turns out that there's not a major "computational" element to sleep. Sure, it may be difficult to circulate fluid through a waken beings brain, but I think evolution could have managed. If the "computational resource" is needed for something else though (like running backprop over your neural networks or something :P)... That to me is the only reasonable explanation for the huge evolutiona…

What's the huge cost? Most land reptiles and mammals spend most of their time idle anyhow, including humans. In many cases sleep is arguably preferable as the animal is less likely to get itself eaten. If you're not foraging or reproducing, your best bet is to hide and stay still. Because animals, especially land animals, tend to be specialized for particular parts of the day or for other scenarios which preclude 24/7 activity, there's not much that can be done in that idle time. Except improve neurological function, apparently.

Animals that need to be constantly in motion have other adaptations.

For modern humans the cost can be immense according to our cultural calculus. I'm not sure it's an evolutionary cost. Only time will tell whether those burning the midnight oil have better reproductive success.

Re: Brains Sweep Themselves Clean of Toxins During Sleep (2013)

#55

Post by eckza »

bmelton wrote: post #41
mrzool wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why force things? I don't want 50% more waking hours. I enjoy my sleep tremendously.

I suspect (but do not know) that you enjoy your sleep because of its restorative effect. If you could obviate the need for the restorative effect, and instead just always feel newly restored, would you still enjoy going to sleep for no reason? Personally, I dislike the need for sleep. I put it off for as long as I can manage, and try to get as little of it as I can get away with. For me, I have a hard time functionin…

Oh my god, think of what this would do to commerce, in terms of a capitalist society.

Suddenly, you can take a drug that decreases your need for sleep by 50%. People only need 4h of sleep per night now, for a full nights' sleep - 3h, if you're willing to skimp a little, 2h isn't unheard of (in the way that only getting 4h of sleep a night, now, isn't unheard of either).

Suddenly, there's a significant advantage in the hands of everyone willing to take this drug. Students are expected to study more and harder, because they don't need 8h of sleep every night. Entrance exams to schools get more difficult. Software developers are now enticed to work longer hours - longer hours than they already are. Labor / shift workers (hospitality / food industry) are expected to work longer shifts, and they have to, because businesses have to be open longer because more people are awake for more of the day.

Now, also, you have to consider: this is just sleep, in terms of brain repair. Your body has to put itself back together every night, too - repairing microscopic muscle tears, fixing bruises, etc etc etc. Your body would probably start slowly falling apart on 2-3h of sleep per night, even if your mind was fully rested.

I really, really hope this doesn't happen.

Re: Brains Sweep Themselves Clean of Toxins During Sleep (2013)

#56

Post by joering2 »

It always amazes me to read articles like this. How come I don't need more than 3 hours of sleep a day and its been like that for over 15 years now?

I sleep "late hours". I go sleep around 8am and wake up around noon. I don't eat breakfast just coffee. I work most of the day on different projects, eat quite large dinner at 8pm, then every day go for 45 min to the gym, around 10pm and then 20 min walk. After that its about midnight and I start working. I don't get tired until 5am but then 2 glasses of water "wake me up". By 8am I'm in bed truly tired.

I been running this schedule for 15 years now, no symptoms of nothing. I don't smoke and don't drink btw. I barely watch TV (never found anything interesting; I take breaks on my PC watching some travel-related documentaries)

Edit: perhaps once a month I feel truly tired and usually on the weekend, I tend to sleep about 8-10 hours. But that doesn't happen often.

Re: Brains Sweep Themselves Clean of Toxins During Sleep (2013)

#57

Post by zachkatz »

nkrisc wrote: post #51
bjornsing wrote: post #40

I'd be very surprised if it turns out that there's not a major "computational" element to sleep. Sure, it may be difficult to circulate fluid through a waken beings brain, but I think evolution could have managed. If the "computational resource" is needed for something else though (like running backprop over your neural networks or something :P)... That to me is the only reasonable explanation for the huge evolutiona…

But evolution doesn't "manage" anything. Evolution often plateaus at "good enough." I think this is the risk in the computer metaphor for the brain. Computers have designers that try to optimize them, brains do not.

As far as we know...

It's possible that our invention of computers was and continues to be a slow brew to simulate something innate within us...

Re: Brains Sweep Themselves Clean of Toxins During Sleep (2013)

#58

Post by amelius »

pnathan wrote: post #21
bitexploder wrote: post #15

The actual research is quite interesting. Sleep disorders themselves are fascinating. There is evidence that TBI (traumatic brain injury) can cause lasting sleep cycle disruption. Perhaps sleep disruption and TBI is a much bigger factor in the lasting impact of TBI than previously thought. ( https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3482689/ ). Article review: This is pretty good science reporting, actually provid…

Yes, "toxic" and "toxins" are incredibly vague. I loathe the use of those words, as they are both scary and nearly meaningless.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxicology

A widely used scientific term.

Re: Brains Sweep Themselves Clean of Toxins During Sleep (2013)

#59

Post by inputcoffee »

bitexploder wrote: post #15

The actual research is quite interesting. Sleep disorders themselves are fascinating. There is evidence that TBI (traumatic brain injury) can cause lasting sleep cycle disruption. Perhaps sleep disruption and TBI is a much bigger factor in the lasting impact of TBI than previously thought. ( https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3482689/ ). Article review: This is pretty good science reporting, actually provid…

Are you sure scientists don't use the term?

Consider: https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&q=toxins+brain&btnG...

I don't have more information. I just typed that in based on your comment.

Re: Brains Sweep Themselves Clean of Toxins During Sleep (2013)

#60

Post by ZanyProgrammer »

It's interesting that in almost every sleep related article I've read on HN, the overwhelming majority of people who respond about their personal life say that they hate getting up 'early'-for various definitions of early. Surely there are programmers who like getting up early?
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