Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Why do developers who could work anywhere flock to the most expensive cities?

techcrunch.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

51–60 of 408 posts

Re: Why do developers who could work anywhere flock to the most expensive cities?

#51

Post by egocodedinsol »

Opinionated take about costs and benefits that doesn't make strong statements about whether remote work or onsite is better:

For context: I moved from NYC to Philadelphia, to finish my thesis and be with my wife who works at the world's best children's hospital. I have lived in Portland, Chicago, and spent extensive time in Toronto. I haven't spent much time in SF.

The change in cost of living is dramatic, and the quality of life is higher by far. I have eaten in extraordinary restaurants in my life and I don't feel Philadelphia suffers in that regard. There is a similar caliber of restaurant (with the exception of a very select few you are likely to eat at a few times a year and could honestly fly to and still save money). While I'm sure ballet and music are better in NYC, I'm not sure most consumers can tell the difference or whether it's worth living nearby.

I don't like remote work as much, and I make no arguments about remote work vs onsite. The talent pool in big areas is probably a huge plus for expensive areas (although healthcare related industry is probably great in Philadelphia, so maybe I haven't lost much there). And if you need onsite workers (again, that's maybe best, I have no argument either way), you can just hire them in SF. (You could probably pay 2x going rate adjusted for cost of living in Philadelphia and still come out ahead, but it might be harder to hire replacements). Quantity of cool jobs is definitely lower.

But if your goal is just financial independence, you could cut your rent to 20-40% of NYC and be within walking distance to work here, it's like getting a 3x pay raise.

I miss certain things about NYC, to be clear. Philadelphia is smaller, there's less of the intense artist feel, less craziness in the streets and much, much more typically dressed men and women. I miss hundreds (literally) takeout places that deliver amazing food in 30 minutes.

I do not miss the trash in the streets (piled three times a week in big bags in Manhattan ) the smell (everyone knows that returning-to-NYC smell), the rats, or the 500 sq foot apartment I was lucky to get in Williamsburg that pales in comparison to the apartment I leased in one of the top ten neighborhoods to live within North America here in Philadelphia.

Re: Why do developers who could work anywhere flock to the most expensive cities?

#52

Post by sidlls »

There is an assumption that developers could work anywhere. This isn't generally true, except in the sense that it's possible to do so in a way it hasn't been in previous decades thanks to the internet speeds and collaboration technology we enjoy today. In reality remote work opportunities are still very much a rarity and they tend to offer lower compensation.

Re: Why do developers who could work anywhere flock to the most expensive cities?

#53

Post by known »

prostoalex wrote: post #23
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #16

If the type of development work you're doing can be easily done remotely, then there is a good chance it can be done much cheaper by a fantastic developer in Ukraine, or India, or China, or some country where wages are a lot cheaper than US or England or Canada. If, however, the type of work you're doing benefits from face-to-face interactions (i.e. quick iterations with lots of feedback from users, marketing and pro…

If you're a fantastic developer in Ukraine, India or China and have very limited needs (compared to a guy with a family and kids), your disposable monthly income net of taxes, rent and commute expenses is still likely to be higher in Silicon Valley than Ukraine, India or China. A rational decision then would be to move to Silicon Valley arbitraging the costs as much as you can (living with roommates, commuting by Cal…

Bingo I did the same :)

Re: Why do developers who could work anywhere flock to the most expensive cities?

#55

Post by alkonaut »

enraged_camel wrote: post #35
anovikov wrote: post #24

LOL it is the other way around, cities become most expensive because developers flock there and spend cash. This happens now in Limassol, Cyprus: crowds of developers, most having their own startups, started to flock there since 3 years ago from Russia, Belarus and Ukraine - it was always a country to keep offshore companies/accounts, so every rich developer in ex-USSR already been there and knew the place, but since…

>>LOL it is the other way around, cities become most expensive because developers flock there and spend cash. Startups flock to where the capital is. Proximity to capital makes it easier to meet investors, get noticed and get funded.

But startups has to be a tiny tiny fraction of software devs. Even in an area of new offices popping up I can't imagine startups being a large fraction of the companies.

Re: Why do developers who could work anywhere flock to the most expensive cities?

#56

Post by Eric_WVGG »

flowardnut wrote: post #44

I moved from a medium sized city that had ~5 dev shops to work at. They all sucked. I had friends from college at each one, and we all basically spent our days plugging fixes into 8 year old java or .net apps and trying to keep our brains entertained. I did the usual and moved to "an expensive city" of portland. There's hundreds of places hiring, from "work on our inventory system in java" to healthcare to high tech…

I lived in the "affordable city" of Portland about fifteen years ago. There was ~5 dev shops to work at. They all sucked. :)

My career didn't turn around until I bailed and went to NYC. It is nice to see that the city has turned around, but I have to confess that I don't miss it in the slightest.

Re: Why do developers who could work anywhere flock to the most expensive cities?

#57

Post by paganel »

Swizec wrote: post #43
prostoalex wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're a fantastic developer in Ukraine, India or China and have very limited needs (compared to a guy with a family and kids), your disposable monthly income net of taxes, rent and commute expenses is still likely to be higher in Silicon Valley than Ukraine, India or China. A rational decision then would be to move to Silicon Valley arbitraging the costs as much as you can (living with roommates, commuting by Cal…

Yep. I moved to SF from Slovenia. The percentage of my income that I save* is smaller, but the absolute number is still bigger. Turns out the glass ceiling for "smart dirty immigrant" jobs is much higher than the ceiling for "remote dude" jobs as well. Add the nice bonus that there's simply more to do in a megalopolis of 6mio people than a city of 300k and it's kind of a no brainer. Unless of course you're okay stagn…

I'm in the opposite boat as you. I am by no means a "fantastic" programmer, but I did indeed receive a job offer for working in NYC a couple of years ago (I now live in an Eastern European capital of about 2 million people). I concluded that living in a shared appt while I'm in my 30s it's not for me anymore, at least if I can avoid it, and there was almost no way for me to live on my own in NYC unless I had commuted from very far away.

I also couldn't fathom putting an entire ocean between myself and all the people and things I love. I see myself living in Berlin, let's say, but living half a world away was just too much for me. I was also well aware of the money I decided to leave on the table when I refused the offer.

Re: Why do developers who could work anywhere flock to the most expensive cities?

#58

Post by azernik »

anovikov wrote: post #24

LOL it is the other way around, cities become most expensive because developers flock there and spend cash. This happens now in Limassol, Cyprus: crowds of developers, most having their own startups, started to flock there since 3 years ago from Russia, Belarus and Ukraine - it was always a country to keep offshore companies/accounts, so every rich developer in ex-USSR already been there and knew the place, but since…

Also very close to the thriving Israeli tech scene, which has lots of Russian-speaking developers (less Russian-speaking VCs).

Re: Why do developers who could work anywhere flock to the most expensive cities?

#59

Post by anovikov »

alkonaut wrote: post #55
enraged_camel wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>LOL it is the other way around, cities become most expensive because developers flock there and spend cash. Startups flock to where the capital is. Proximity to capital makes it easier to meet investors, get noticed and get funded.

But startups has to be a tiny tiny fraction of software devs. Even in an area of new offices popping up I can't imagine startups being a large fraction of the companies.

Correct. 'real' startups (those you would read on techcrunch or hacker news about) are a small fraction. Most of them are 'internet moneymakers' in the wide sense, most don't need the investments, or operating in the grey area (like: arbitrage of porn traffic, various bots, etc), they basically just want interesting IT people to exchange ideas with. They still attract VCs wishing to prey on them whenever possible.

Re: Why do developers who could work anywhere flock to the most expensive cities?

#60

Post by Swizec »

paganel wrote: post #57
Swizec wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. I moved to SF from Slovenia. The percentage of my income that I save* is smaller, but the absolute number is still bigger. Turns out the glass ceiling for "smart dirty immigrant" jobs is much higher than the ceiling for "remote dude" jobs as well. Add the nice bonus that there's simply more to do in a megalopolis of 6mio people than a city of 300k and it's kind of a no brainer. Unless of course you're okay stagn…

I'm in the opposite boat as you. I am by no means a "fantastic" programmer, but I did indeed receive a job offer for working in NYC a couple of years ago (I now live in an Eastern European capital of about 2 million people). I concluded that living in a shared appt while I'm in my 30s it's not for me anymore, at least if I can avoid it, and there was almost no way for me to live on my own in NYC unless I had commuted…

I agree. Having a girlfriend from here and sharing an apartment with her (she also makes 6 figures) rather than strangers makes things a lot easier.

She's an EU/US dual citizen so she could move to Europe with me, but opportunities for soft skills people are hella scarce on that side of the pond. It's hard enough over here.

And 2 million capital vs 300k capital is big difference in "amount of things available" ;)

I'd prob wanna move to Paris or Berlin or NYC eventually. All cheaper than SF.

Post reply on HN