Trolls are winning the internet, technologists say • Hacker News Board

Re: Trolls are winning the internet, technologists say

#51

Post by Edmond » Fri, Mar 31, 2017, 6:32 PM UTC

michaelchisari wrote: post #34

Edmond wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are folks like us working on this: https://www.cipheredtrust.com/ The trick is a scalable means to do identity verification on the internet...basically a way to do it that preserves user privacy and security and it is dirt cheap so everyone can leverage it.

I'm curious about something... I've seen reports that when places started using Facebook comments, they found that the lack of anonymity didn't prevent trolling, in fact, it made everyday people more hostile. Is it just about identity? Would that do anything more than just removing the occasional death threat, instead of actually addressing the more pervasive trolling?

There are going to be people who are terrible and will continue misbehaving without concern for others....the basic problem with the internet as it currently exists is that it has almost entirely modeled our physical world's societal processes but unfortunately lacks a way to easily hold people accountable online for their behavior. Most of the stuff people feel free to do online that is detrimental to others, they would never do in the physical world. Distance obviously does give safety to bad behavior, I can sit in NYC and insult you in SF without worrying about physical altercation.

One way to address this problem is to give service providers an easy way to enforce their terms of services. This would have the effect of also making those service providers honest, in other words if you claim to want to create a welcoming space for all your users but you refuse to take effective actions against those who violate your terms then your hypocrisy is laid bare...Today twitter can claim they can't verify everyone's account, but if that was not an excuse anymore, then they'll have to effectively deal with those who violate their policies even if it means losing certain users.

Re: Trolls are winning the internet, technologists say

#52

Post by paulpauper » Fri, Mar 31, 2017, 6:33 PM UTC

I think it's the opposite: I hardly see any truly malicious trolling these days, especially since 2013. What the author attributes to trolling may just be someone expressing a view that goes against the grain, but is not deliberately intended to provoke a negative reaction and or in 'bad faith', which is a closer definition of what trolling is. The reason why there is less trolling is because many forum communities and social networks have filters and much stricter moderation and much less tolerance for trolls, than a decade or longer ago. From anecdotal experience, in 2004, trolling was much more prevalent on forums, but now admins and users have much less tolerance for it.

Re: Trolls are winning the internet, technologists say

#53

Post by michaelchisari » Fri, Mar 31, 2017, 6:33 PM UTC

the_af wrote: post #47

michaelchisari wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, I could see that being a problem, but if the question that the "help vampire" is asking is a valid one, then you have to remember that all online conversations have an audience, and that your response is as much to the audience as it is to the person you're directly responding to. Even just politely linking a similar question and response is better than responding with RTFM. > RTFM has always been part of the h…

Help vampires do not ask valid questions very often. It's very unlikely a community will have RTFM as a standard response to valid questions (i.e. those that provide context and show effort on the part of the asker), with one exception: when the question has been asked countless times already, and the asker could have seen it if they had made the minimum effort of reading the community's FAQ. In which case, RTFM -- o…

I think a variation of RTFM, let's call it GentleRTFM, is both worth keeping and necessary.

I'm in agreement on that. Although I also think Socratic method should also be employed in those cases.

Re: Trolls are winning the internet, technologists say

#54

Post by Mendenhall » Fri, Mar 31, 2017, 6:34 PM UTC

st3v3r wrote: post #27

rjbwork wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So your solution is to be given tools to enforce your cognitive bias reinforcing filter bubble? That's not a solution, that's a technology provided lobotomy. A dialogue takes two - if you don't like the dialogue taking place, instead of attempting to quiet the other voices, perhaps just remove yourself from the dialogue.

That's what they're trying to do. But I'm getting really, really, really tired of people conflating the "other side" stuff with the trolling stuff. Look at all the stuff sent to Leslie Jones last summer. Do you honestly think that was meant to be a dialog? Of course not. That was trolling. That was harassment. And that is what people are trying to filter out.

If i say "leslie jones sucks" am I trolling or do I think she actually sucks at her job. If a million people one after another go on leslie jones profile and say "leslie is a horrible actress" is that trolling ? harrassment ?

If someone says "Trump sucks" should they be filtered out ?

Do I think its a dialogue, heck no. Do I think it should be filtered, double heck no.

Re: Trolls are winning the internet, technologists say

#55

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Mar 31, 2017, 6:34 PM UTC

Goronmon wrote: post #39

pervycreeper wrote: post #26

If we define "troll" as anyone who posts inflammatory, bad faith, needlessly aggressive, insulting, false, or otherwise unproductive content, then the entire class of authors of the genre of news article decrying trolling and harassment are themselves trolls. >Of course, this is already happening, just out of sight of most of us Why would they consider that to be such a big problem, if it's not bothering those who ar…

If we define "troll" as anyone who posts inflammatory, bad faith, needlessly aggressive, insulting, false, or otherwise unproductive content, then the entire class of authors of the genre of news article decrying trolling and harassment are themselves trolls. Isn't that a bit of a tautology? "If I expand the definition of the word 'troll' to include 'authors decrying trolling' then authors who decry trolling become '…

[deleted]

Re: Trolls are winning the internet, technologists say

#56

Post by jumpkickhit » Fri, Mar 31, 2017, 6:35 PM UTC

It think the problem is now too many people are on the internet.

Back in the 90's, it was a great place to hang out. In the 2000's, you had fun sites with great user commentary like Fark, Digg, Slashdot, and Reddit.

Now everybody and their kid has a cellphone with internet access. Your average person is an asshole, so that's reflected online because of how saturated it all is now.

Re: Trolls are winning the internet, technologists say

#57

Post by ElatedOwl » Fri, Mar 31, 2017, 6:35 PM UTC

michaelchisari wrote: post #44

ElatedOwl wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is; but they're employing shills, not trolls. It doesn't even have to be political, I'm sure we've all seen the forced corporate memes that totally aren't an advertisement.

they're employing shills, not trolls. I disagree. CTR was known for promotion, shilling, just as advertisers are, but people in Russian employ were known for disruption. They aren't pushing the merits of Donald Trump, Marine LePen, etc., as much as they're fomenting discord through fake news and aggressive bias.

Linguistics aside I think we're in agreement. :)

The article doesn't outright define trolling, but gets pretty close with:

>humans like trolling. It’s easy for people to stay anonymous while they harass, pester, and bully other people online

All I'm getting at is, people being assholes on the internet isn't a real problem compared to the astroturfing and forum sliding that goes on.

Re: Trolls are winning the internet, technologists say

#58

Post by SolaceQuantum » Fri, Mar 31, 2017, 6:35 PM UTC

ElatedOwl wrote: post #35

I'm surprised at the concern over trolling compared to shilling. If someone wants to be an ass whatever, but CTR and similar seems like a much more serious problem to me.

I haven't found sources or people being confirmed as CTR shills after the election was over. If you could provide some I'd appreciate these. I agree shills can be a problem but I haven't found conclusive evidence of their influence.

Re: Trolls are winning the internet, technologists say

#59

Post by Edmond » Fri, Mar 31, 2017, 6:37 PM UTC

pcmaffey wrote: post #50

michaelchisari wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious about something... I've seen reports that when places started using Facebook comments, they found that the lack of anonymity didn't prevent trolling, in fact, it made everyday people more hostile. Is it just about identity? Would that do anything more than just removing the occasional death threat, instead of actually addressing the more pervasive trolling?

Given that identity is the basis for most trolling, I'd say identity is a poor proxy for trust. Despite what Facebook and the CIA / NSA may want us to believe, there's no evidence that a lack of anonymity/privacy leads to greater accountability.

Identity can prevent abuse if it can be used as an effective way to keep the trolls out. In the real world if you know behaving badly can get you permanently banned from a place you'd like to have access to, that keeps you in check.

Similarly if it was possible for service providers to effectively penalize (from suspension to permanent banning) abusers in a way that they can't easily circumvent (ie create a new account), that'll be effective.

Re: Trolls are winning the internet, technologists say

#60

Post by kartan » Fri, Mar 31, 2017, 6:37 PM UTC

If I understand correctly what has happened recently, state-sponsored media disruption is the problem.

While the Internet was a place for nerds, it was uninteresting for mainstream powers. Nowadays is a good target for states wanting to influence elections, for companies that want to sell their products and for organized religion. Old tricks in a "new" medium.

If a power can mobilize millions of troops, or expend millions on discrediting climate change. Why should they respect the Internet?