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Hiring without whiteboards

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Re: Hiring without whiteboards

#51

Post by jonasvp »

lj3 wrote: post #43
jonasvp wrote: post #25

I'm responsible for hiring developers at our company based in Berlin, Germany, and found it best to have a guided interview about the candidate's work experience and interesting problems that she/he solved. I never understood the whiteboard hazing/CS trivia that are so widely discussed on HN since it seems extremely disconnected from the actual work that's being done. That said, I'm always surprised how many candidat…

> found it best to have a guided interview about the candidate's work experience and interesting problems that she/he solved. This. I advocate this method of interviewing here in the states every chance I get. The most common form of push back I get is from hiring managers terrified of being hoodwinked into making a bad hire. It's like they don't trust their own judgement enough to be able to tell apart those who kno…

> It's like they don't trust their own judgement enough to be able to tell apart those who know what they're talking about from those who just talk a good game.

Which is usually the case in larger companies, I assume. The person doing the hiring in that case is far removed from the people and work actually connected with the candidate.

> Junior engineers, I assume?

You're right, that's surely part of it. Not only, however - sometimes you get the feeling that work is something that happens to people, not something they seek out and try to get better at. Which for many positions is completely fine.

Re: Hiring without whiteboards

#52

Post by jpalomaki »

nallerooth wrote: post #18

As a follow up to the first interview, we give promising candidates a quite simple task to solve at home and then send back via email the next day. This is used both for some basic evaluation of developers skills (whether they actually solved the problem, did they catch the small oddities hidden in the data set, did they document and write tests, etc.) and as something to discuss during the second interview, in which…

Some time ago somebody mention in HN a process which sounded pretty good and fair. For promising candidates:

1) Meeting where you are presented a problem and asked to immediately give your thoughts on how you would approach it.

2) Some days, for example weekend, to work on the problem. Candidate gets a monetary compensation for this time.

3) Next meeting where you present the solution.

Yes, there's always a risk that somebody will get somebody else to write the code, but having to explain before and after reduces the risk. Paying for the work shows you are serious about the recruitment.

Re: Hiring without whiteboards

#53

Post by jon-wood »

lj3 wrote: post #33
gedrap wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that this is a proper justification for sending coding projects to everyone who submitted a CV. This is a big imbalance in time investment from both sides and quite disrespectful from the applications point of view.

It's not disrespectful for a company to ask you to write a little code for them. They're just as invested on the time front as you are since they have to read and analyze what you send them. Now, if you were to tell me that nobody ever looked at the test after you sent it in, then it becomes disrespectful. I had several companies do that to me a few months ago. Not that it matters much. I don't think code tests will…

A little time is fine but last time I was applying for developer jobs almost all of these tasks would take at least an hour to complete, probably more like two or three to do it in a way I'm willing to show to someone screening me on that basis.

By requiring these tasks you're implicitly screening not only people who can't code but also people who don't have three hours to spend on applying to your company. If all you want is 20-somethings with no other responsibilities then continue as you are, but if you'd like to see a bit of diversity then you're going to have to compromise.

Re: Hiring without whiteboards

#54

Post by nherment »

jonasvp wrote: post #25

I'm responsible for hiring developers at our company based in Berlin, Germany, and found it best to have a guided interview about the candidate's work experience and interesting problems that she/he solved. I never understood the whiteboard hazing/CS trivia that are so widely discussed on HN since it seems extremely disconnected from the actual work that's being done. That said, I'm always surprised how many candidat…

We're in Denmark and currently hiring.

I'm not sure why there is such extreme hate for the whiteboard. Yes it has plenty of caveats when it comes to actual coding and recruiters should not expect any candidate to write precise code on that medium.

I do use the whiteboard for trivial CS questions limited to 5-10 minutes. Think fizzbuzz and string reversal. Candidates have the option to use my laptop (not ideal because the keyboard has a US layout) but they are welcome to use their own computer as well (if they thought about bringing it). It weeds out candidates who can't even produce basic code. And yes, a candidate with 2+ years of experience should be able to write a basic function on a whiteboard, a napkin, or whatever. If not, the interview is not lost but the candidate will have to prove his skills another way.

For most candidates, we also give a longer technical test which is to be done at home and takes 2 to 4 hours to complete. Candidates are given as many days as they want to complete it.

Whiteboard is an excellent medium however when discussing architecture and higher level ideas. It's also a tool that I've used during day to day activities with colleagues. Software based tools don't come even close.

Re: Hiring without whiteboards

#55

Post by napoleoncomplex »

jonasvp wrote: post #25

I'm responsible for hiring developers at our company based in Berlin, Germany, and found it best to have a guided interview about the candidate's work experience and interesting problems that she/he solved. I never understood the whiteboard hazing/CS trivia that are so widely discussed on HN since it seems extremely disconnected from the actual work that's being done. That said, I'm always surprised how many candidat…

Also from Europe, and we have a similar approach, discussion with the candidate about previous work, interesting problems, any public code they've written, etc. Just to figure out what kind of challenges excite them, and get to know them better.

We also do a coding challenge after that, basically the candidate behind a computer, with all the resources they want accessible to them, implementing a simple example directly relevant to the type of work they'll be doing, while the interviewers are in the room and debate with them if needed.

To me, the most important quality in a candidate, once we determine that the basic skill level is good enough, is their ability to learn, quickly find the resources needed, and rely on the team when they need help. Whiteboard interviews don't seem to select for any of those qualities.

Re: Hiring without whiteboards

#56

Post by Sacho »

lj3 wrote: post #46
ori_b wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> unnecessary I can't think of any way to do an interview without pressure. Pressure is unavoidable when someone's future job is on the line.

It's avoidable. Behavioral questions don't tend to freak engineers out. Neither do questions about their past work.

> Neither do questions about their past work.

If you feel you didn't accomplish much at your last job(which would be a pretty common reason for quitting), then a question about it would be pretty stressful, since the company is evaluating you based on work you didn't find to be your best.

Re: Hiring without whiteboards

#57

Post by ori_b »

lj3 wrote: post #46
ori_b wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> unnecessary I can't think of any way to do an interview without pressure. Pressure is unavoidable when someone's future job is on the line.

It's avoidable. Behavioral questions don't tend to freak engineers out. Neither do questions about their past work.

> Behavioral questions don't tend to freak engineers out.

Speak for yourself. I'm far more relaxed when diving into a technical question than when playing a guessing game about what social signalling I'm supposed to be doing at that moment.

Re: Hiring without whiteboards

#58

Post by on_and_off »

Just ran through 2 complete interview cycles without touching a whiteboard once.

Got a great offer from both and accepted one of them.

I strongly prefer a coding project to a whiteboard. It is still a bit artificial, but it is way closer to my actual work.

Re: Hiring without whiteboards

#59

Post by bbcbasic »

jonasvp wrote: post #25

I'm responsible for hiring developers at our company based in Berlin, Germany, and found it best to have a guided interview about the candidate's work experience and interesting problems that she/he solved. I never understood the whiteboard hazing/CS trivia that are so widely discussed on HN since it seems extremely disconnected from the actual work that's being done. That said, I'm always surprised how many candidat…

> That said, I'm always surprised how many candidates cannot even point to one problem they worked on they found interesting or one solution that they're proud of.

I have trouble recalling the details of things I worked on even say a week ago sometimes. I also don't find most of the work I do that interesting as I've been coding along time solving the same kinds of problems. However to play the game i would of course brush up for questions like that, and be quite convincing.

Re: Hiring without whiteboards

#60

Post by et-al »

jonasvp wrote: post #25

I'm responsible for hiring developers at our company based in Berlin, Germany, and found it best to have a guided interview about the candidate's work experience and interesting problems that she/he solved. I never understood the whiteboard hazing/CS trivia that are so widely discussed on HN since it seems extremely disconnected from the actual work that's being done. That said, I'm always surprised how many candidat…

> That said, I'm always surprised how many candidates cannot even point to one problem they worked on they found interesting or one solution that they're proud of.

It could be that this technique favors people good at telling stories.

Personally, I'm a horrible storyteller. If you were to ask me what I did over the weekend, I'll offer some facts like "oh, went swimming in a river and Bob lost his hat, but we found it later. The water was nice." Whereas Bob could easily regale you with stories about the epic hunt for his hat and throw in a punchline in the end.

If I didn't know that you'd be asking for solutions I'm proud of, I might draw a blank at that moment. Granted it's an interview setting and these are the questions one needs to prepare for. But if given the choice between speaking about myself or whiteboarding, I'll take the whiteboard.

I've always preferred math over history for that matter. It's easier for some of us to apply processes than to recite chronologies.

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