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SEC Rejects Rule Change for Bitcoin Exchange-Traded Fund [pdf]

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Re: SEC Rejects Rule Change for Bitcoin Exchange-Traded Fund [pdf]

#51

Post by em3rgent0rdr »

andy_ppp wrote: post #42
chollida1 wrote: post #18

Bitcoin just went from a high of 1327.1926 to 995.9575 in the blink of an eye. Wow. From the ruling.... > First, the exchange must have surveillance-sharing agreements with significant markets for trading the underlying commodity or derivatives on that commodity. And second, those markets must be regulated. > Based on the record before it, the Commission believes that the significant markets for bitcoin are unregulat…

I don't look at bitcoin as a currency I look at it as a fungible reserve like Gold or a Rolex. Both of those things usually appreciate in value, especially in uncertain times; I'll be using this price decrease to buy more I think.

"bitcoin" itself is unregulated in the same way gold itself is unregulated.

Re: SEC Rejects Rule Change for Bitcoin Exchange-Traded Fund [pdf]

#53

Post by djrogers »

TwoBit wrote: post #43
dhosek wrote: post #37

Here's the basic thing: Bitcoin is fatally flawed. Is it meant to be a payment method (in which case an ETF or otherwise treating it as an investment vehicle is roughly as nonsensical as having an ETF that deals with blank checks) or is it an investment (and if it's an investment, what on earth are people investing in?). The volatility of Bitcoin plus the constrained supply leading towards upwards pressure on the pri…

How is Bitcoin significantly different from gold? I suppose gold does get used for something.

Nobody is pushing for vending machines or retailers to take gold...

Re: SEC Rejects Rule Change for Bitcoin Exchange-Traded Fund [pdf]

#54

Post by ceejayoz »

paulpauper wrote: post #47
ceejayoz wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As opposed to Bitcoin, where the statement is sometimes along the lines of "lost 30% of its value since 20:13 "?

In 2013, depositors in Bank of Greece lost 50% of their deposits above $100k, overnight, by decree. Not saying Bitcoin is perfect, but the alternatives are often not better.

"We're as bad as Greece during a financial crisis" isn't really reinforcing the "safe haven" argument.

Re: SEC Rejects Rule Change for Bitcoin Exchange-Traded Fund [pdf]

#55

Post by dragonwriter »

JoshTriplett wrote: post #12

It's interesting, based on the rest of the ruling, that they're not particularly concerned with any other aspects of it as a commodity (they acknowledge various interesting properties of it but note that those wouldn't themselves prevent them from approving this), but instead solely concerned that the rest of the Bitcoin market isn't controlled and monitored well enough for them to regulate activities on it.

The criteria of surveillance agreements with regulated markets for the underlying asset appears to be (based on the discussion in the paper) well established, clear in its application to the facts, and dispositive in this case.

That doesn't mean it's their biggest concern; regulatory entities (and courts) tend to focus on criteria that meet those qualifications over other because they produce decisions which don't require creation of substantial new rules/precedent, and are more difficult to challenge.

Re: SEC Rejects Rule Change for Bitcoin Exchange-Traded Fund [pdf]

#56

Post by brilliantcode »

Having sold all of my bitcoin at ~800 at a small loss (a significant portion coming from commission fee( ~$150+ to convert low four digit USD amount of bitcoins to fiat.) I am paying attention to the bitcoin prices closely. As USD gains more interest it's going to put downward pressure on gold and bitcoin.

There's no way this is going to gain mass adoption by being this expensive.

More importantly, this signals strong government regulation in the bitcoin and cryptocoin industry in general. I wouldn't be surprised if we started seeing security laws being applied retroactively to all the scams like initial coin offering (like IPO but unregulated and heavily manipulated) on Bitcoin and Ethereum.

To the wary trend watcher, this is exactly what VC's feared and noted by the significant decline in VC investment in blockchain and cryptocurrency startups.

Re: SEC Rejects Rule Change for Bitcoin Exchange-Traded Fund [pdf]

#57

Post by djrogers »

paulpauper wrote: post #28

This is the same committee that approved VXX and UVXX ,which have lost 99.999% of their value There is an OTC fund that holds Bitcoin...but at a large premium to NAV

It's not the SEC's job to judge the value of the funds traded, but their compliance with SEC regulations. Your argument is like blaming the NYSE for the failure of a public company.

Re: SEC Rejects Rule Change for Bitcoin Exchange-Traded Fund [pdf]

#58

Post by 1001101 »

paulpauper wrote: post #17
joecool1029 wrote: post #8

that was great to watch, went from $1300 to $975 in about 90 seconds. We'll see how long the dead cat lasts. See you at $600.

imho it stabilizes and goes back to 1200. It surged from 2011-2014 without the ETF...Bitcoin is seen as a safe haven against global destabilization. A lot of money on the sidelines looking for a buying opportunity that has come

Exactly. The bitcoin market is small compared to other financial markets, 15 billion or so, but has potential to get much larger. In a world of negative interest rates, capital controls, and cashless societies, it looks pretty attractive. It's wealth that you control and own. When the next financial crisis comes (and in the face of low yields and record PEs), the asymmetries of money flowing out of these markets into Bitcoin will be a sight to behold. I hold some BTC. It's been a wild ride from the 200s. -10, -20% is just another day in Bitcoin world. yawn

Re: SEC Rejects Rule Change for Bitcoin Exchange-Traded Fund [pdf]

#59

Post by EGreg »

chollida1 wrote: post #18

Bitcoin just went from a high of 1327.1926 to 995.9575 in the blink of an eye. Wow. From the ruling.... > First, the exchange must have surveillance-sharing agreements with significant markets for trading the underlying commodity or derivatives on that commodity. And second, those markets must be regulated. > Based on the record before it, the Commission believes that the significant markets for bitcoin are unregulat…

I put a 50x leveraged short contract trade 10 mins before that at BitMex, and just before it plummeted, it quickly went up to 1327 and I got wiped out. So I didn't get to make a huge return!
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