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Nevertheless, She Coded

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Re: Nevertheless, She Coded

#51

Post by and0 »

dijit wrote: post #48
and0 wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The highest-profile case that I'm personally attached to or know people involved in would be the countless allegations against Jacob Applebaum from Tor. There's one particularly dishonest method that people who defend the status quo use (usually out of sweaty desperation for privileges handed out based on gender, race, or financial class), which is the way they frame incidents of abuse or oppression as completely iso…

Jacob Applebaum was publicly crucified and Uber also. That would not be a thing if there was an inherent sexism in tech, if that was the case people would have shrugged at it as if it was normal behaviour. They most certainly did not. I won't comment on "get out of the way".

No one is talking about punishments or justice after the fact. You would never say a crime that occurs systematically is a non-issue because the perpetrators are punished if/when caught.

PLEASE get out of the way. Stop mucking with people's fights for equality by injecting your willful ignorance.

Re: Nevertheless, She Coded

#52

Post by antisthenes »

and0 wrote: post #36
prepend wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think anyone is claiming that Susan Fowler's case is unique, it is not. Her case is rare, like murder. Of course murder is a terrible crime and is in no way equivalent to sexual harassment, but is useful as an example of a terrible, but rare case. I sincerely hope the problem isn't systemic or systematic within tech, but I need to see data to believe this. Your anecdotes of multiple women who have, unfortunat…

It's not rare. Everyone is telling you it's not rare! Women keep saying it's not rare! If you had any interest in looking at the issue honestly you'd know this. Computers can't teach you about the subtleties of power dynamics and politics. You only think this because you're sheltered, so please stop telling women their experiences aren't valid. Also, do you really think your own anecdote of "I stare at a screen all d…

No actual data (x keeps saying y is not data)

No true Scotsman

*Trying to censor opposition in earlier post.

If you ever wonder why people aren't taking you seriously or listening to you, that's a good start.

Re: Nevertheless, She Coded

#53

Post by and0 »

dijit wrote: post #49
and0 wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I live in Sweden, in Sweden it's believed that Women and Men are equal. That's all I have to say about feminism- if there are cases where they are not then that needs to be addressed." The page you're commenting on cites these cases and is trying to address them. And yet... for some reason you can't let that be. Something is making you pop up, uninvited, to make sure your thoughts on feminism and what's fair in tech…

You are also not invited, nobody is invited. It was posted for comments and I gave mine. My advice for you is to think clearly and objectively about what your thoughts are and how they are misaligned with mine. I understand what you have been claiming but you have also been decrying other people for doing the same things you are doing. I am not here for a fight. I don't want you getting swelly eyed and emotional beca…

Again, the page linked was by women for women. You chiming in to say (repeatedly at this point) that they a.) have a victim complex but also b.) need guidance to understand their own situations and beliefs very obviously proves their point. How can you dismiss these women as confused and in need of your guidance but also say they don't need to be condescended to in the same sentence and not realize something is wrong? Or that maybe these women have a point when they poke at these ideas?

You're too fragile to address this or gain any sort of self-awareness, so talking to you is a waste of time. Hopefully someone else has read my comments and actually thought about the issue.

Re: Nevertheless, She Coded

#54

Post by panglott »

mirage01 wrote: post #34
dijit wrote: post #6

Virtue Signalling and attempting to divide the genders in the opening, before the quotes from women in tech. I expect better from The Practical Dev, you don't have to paint men in a derogatory light to bring up women.

No one has to "attempt to divide the genders." Women have already been subjected to this in colonial and imperial countries for at least thousands of years. What you see as an "attempt at dividing" is more accurately the article showing you reality while you dismiss it.

Yea, reading this comment just a week after Susan Fowler's post on her experiences at Uber is surreal.

It's not the ones complaining about this stuff who are "dividing the genders".

Re: Nevertheless, She Coded

#55

Post by and0 »

antisthenes wrote: post #52
and0 wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not rare. Everyone is telling you it's not rare! Women keep saying it's not rare! If you had any interest in looking at the issue honestly you'd know this. Computers can't teach you about the subtleties of power dynamics and politics. You only think this because you're sheltered, so please stop telling women their experiences aren't valid. Also, do you really think your own anecdote of "I stare at a screen all d…

No actual data (x keeps saying y is not data) No true Scotsman *Trying to censor opposition in earlier post. If you ever wonder why people aren't taking you seriously or listening to you, that's a good start.

Damn, if only these women had also found the Wikipedia portal for logical fallacies, and also had concrete stats on workplace harassment, which is a personal, embarrassing, and highly political subject.

Re: Nevertheless, She Coded

#56

Post by panglott »

dijit wrote: post #15
and0 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google Susan Fowler and/or stop being dishonest.

Susan Fowlers case is harrowing and disgusting and shows that sometimes there bad people in powerful positions who are sexist. I don't think the tone of "the world is sexist" is genuine or fair, Susan Fowlers case is notable because it's definitely the exception, not the norm. Of course I will be glad when things like that _never- happen_, but if you take the example of murders.. There is usually a huge murder proble…

This stuff, like catcalling, is mostly invisible to me as a man.

But at some point, you read enough stories, you realize it's the norm, not the exception.

Re: Nevertheless, She Coded

#57

Post by codingisfunny »

I worked with a lot of women in software development, and not only didn't they face much discrimination, they were also constantly praised and helped by everybody, because people in that industry are taught constantly that women need help, that women are harassed, that we need more women.

I'm tired of that crap, when a male coder face problems with teammates, at best he's called arrogant for defending himself, at worst incompetent because somewhat that loser deserved to be bullied. It's a tough industry but women are a lot more preserved by their colleagues than men are.

Re: Nevertheless, She Coded

#58

Post by dijit »

and0 wrote: post #53
dijit wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are also not invited, nobody is invited. It was posted for comments and I gave mine. My advice for you is to think clearly and objectively about what your thoughts are and how they are misaligned with mine. I understand what you have been claiming but you have also been decrying other people for doing the same things you are doing. I am not here for a fight. I don't want you getting swelly eyed and emotional beca…

Again , the page linked was by women for women. You chiming in to say (repeatedly at this point) that they a.) have a victim complex but also b.) need guidance to understand their own situations and beliefs very obviously proves their point. How can you dismiss these women as confused and in need of your guidance but also say they don't need to be condescended to in the same sentence and not realize something is wron…

Wow, sorry, I didn't say they needed guidance. I said they didn't need to be force fed this narrative.

Re: Nevertheless, She Coded

#59

Post by jonahrd »

prepend wrote: post #14
proaralyst wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you see that? What do you disagree with?

I'm not the person you asked, but I don't see how Senator Warren speaking has much to do with women programmers. While there are lot of challenges, I don't think Ada Lovelace was denegrated. In fact, the quote about her is kind of nonsense as it refers to her historical significance as related to her actions at the time. Is this trying to say that she coded despite computer science historians trying to belittle her c…

The article isn't responsible for the recent re-purposing of the phrase "Nevertheless, she persisted", and I think it's a relevant connection to make.

And I read the "Nevertheless, she coded" as more of a global She, as in there are still women in computer science pushing for equality even in the face of the obstacles that women in tech have encountered in the past.

Re: Nevertheless, She Coded

#60

Post by panglott »

prepend wrote: post #32
Zikes wrote: post #17

> Gender inequality has permeated the technology and computer science fields since their earliest beginnings. It's true. The earliest "computers" were overwhelmingly women. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_computer#Wartime_computi...

Those were secretarial jobs and not equivalent to today's computer programmers, like Ada Lovelace.

Those were secretarial jobs because the men designing the hardware thought that was the hard stuff, and that designing software was basically secretarial work. When they discovered that designing software was hard, they forced the women out. http://gender.stanford.edu/news/2011/researcher-reveals-how-...
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