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UC proposes its first enrollment cap on out-of-state students

latimes.com

51–60 of 95 posts

Re: UC proposes its first enrollment cap on out-of-state students

#51

The review that was done awhile ago showed that nonresidents reduced the amount of residents in the program, any attempt to merely walk-over the issue is a sign that you are lying and speaking in poor faith. As if there never was any negative set of circumstances that could be predicated fundamentally on the idea that did in people from here , all that talk, and all that pretense when you rap to just your favorite mu…

>The review that was done awhile ago showed that nonresidents reduced the amount of residents in the program

Cf. what the audit actually found:

>The audit found that out-of-state applicants benefited from lowered admission standards [italics mine], while California students increasingly were turned away from their campus of choice.

The only reason to give out-of-state students lower admission standards than in-state students is if you're not merely admitting them but preferring them, and the obvious motive in preferring out-of-state students is that they pay five times as much if not more in tuition compared to in-state students.

One way to evaluate proposed solutions to problems is "can the proposed solution solve the problem?"; if the out-of-state enrollment in 2006 was 5.5% and in 2016 was 15% and the cap is 20% (these are the real numbers) then obviously the proposed solution cannot solve the problem and it is frankly questionable whether it is even a legitimate attempt to solve the problem. It appears to instead be a way to politically grandstand by scapegoating the UC admissions departments and the out-of-state students instead of admitting there's a funding problem. The $18M in funding is also a pittance:

>UC spokeswoman Dianne Klein said the proposed policy balanced the needs of California students with the benefits that nonresident students bring — diverse perspectives as well as millions in additional tuition revenue, which added up to nearly $550 million in 2016-17.

Increasing the proportion of out-of-state students by 1% here appears to bring in about $50 million. There is not even a clear financial incentive for the UC system to bother following this directive! They would make more money by ignoring it.

The financial data indicates that the UC system will likely ignore this directive. Considering that the State used a tiny carrot instead of a big stick, they probably know this. If the State were serious in addressing this problem they could threaten to fine the UC system for discriminating against local students as was found in the audit. However this would kill the "golden goose" and result in drastic underfunding of the system because out-of-state students are currently covering a budget gap way bigger than this proposal could ever address.

So the legislature is not going to do that. They made this proposal to rile up gullible Californian nativists who think outsiders are the source of all their problems, and you fell for it.

Re: UC proposes its first enrollment cap on out-of-state students

#52
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm an undergraduate at a UC school right now, and I can tell you that that is happening in the UC system. State funding per student has collapsed [1] and campuses are scrambling to cover the costs. One way to do that is by increasing tuition, and another is by admitting out-of-state students who pay massive premiums to attend the university. Out of state students pay about $50k/yr to attend a UC. In-state students p…

>Absent additional state funding (lol), an enrollment cap would necessarily result in tuition increases. I really really hope it doesn't get passed. Or, how about the UC system reduces spending per student?

They already spend less than most comparably-ranked universities. If you take a look at the link I posted on the top-level comment, you'll see that expenses per student have been increasing pretty slowly.

Of course, waste should still be cut if it exists. Are there any specific programs that you think should have their funding reduced?

Re: UC proposes its first enrollment cap on out-of-state students

#53
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm an undergraduate at a UC school right now, and I can tell you that that is happening in the UC system. State funding per student has collapsed [1] and campuses are scrambling to cover the costs. One way to do that is by increasing tuition, and another is by admitting out-of-state students who pay massive premiums to attend the university. Out of state students pay about $50k/yr to attend a UC. In-state students p…

>Absent additional state funding (lol), an enrollment cap would necessarily result in tuition increases. I really really hope it doesn't get passed. Or, how about the UC system reduces spending per student?

[deleted]

Re: UC proposes its first enrollment cap on out-of-state students

#54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uhhh yes? The schools have only so many spots. In-state students who don't get an acceptance letter receive no benefit when some rich kid from another state or country gets in. The in-state student ends up going to a lesser school and they're worse off for it. The rich kid gets a top tier education and quite likely returns home after graduating. So yeah. There's absolutely a conflict of interests. I'm surprised this…

I think it's long- versus short-term horizons. If your state fills with less-qualified in-staters at the expense of qualified out-of-staters, that feels good now but is uncompetitive in the long run. (Consider what would happen if California's start-up founders hadn't been drawn in by its universities.) If, on the other hand, you neglect the local population then that, too, is bad. Either way, it's a question of bala…

There's no long-term benefit if out-of-state students don't stick around after graduation. This is an even bigger issue with international students due to immigration laws.

There is a difference between less-qualified and under-qualified. The difference between a 3.7 and 3.8 high school GPA is negligible. Top state schools are so competitive that we're splitting hairs.

Re: UC proposes its first enrollment cap on out-of-state students

#56
post #14
post #12

A couple of important notes FTA: 1) the cap is currently not limiting for the system as a whole, as the proportion is around 16% 2) It also includes a per-campus 20% cap, with raised caps for campuses that are already above 20%. So Berkeley, UCLA, and UCSD will be prevented from raising their nonresident proportions, and new growth will be redirected to schools like Merced (only 1% nonresident students). My personal…

That's because nonresident admissions don't reduce the absolute number of Californians the system can support! They pay much more in tuition than the UC spends on their education, and much of the remainder gets spent on in-state residents. In-state admissions have fallen at highly competitive schools like UCLA not because out-of-state students are taking up more of a set number of spots, but because the amount of in-…

Mass accepting out-of-state students is most certainly not a solution, it's a band-aid (not to mention it basically screws California taxpayers). The solution would be to just increase state funding AND cap out-of-state admit rates.

It's very hard for Berkeley and UCLA to stay competitive with Stanford and Caltech (and the Ivy League) when their private counterparts not only offer better financial aid for at-need low-income students, but are also starting to be in the same ballpark for in-state middle-class students. Not only that, but the main idea behind the UC system is that it was intended for California students first.

UCLA had over 100,000 applications last year, the most out of any other school, public or private. I am completely okay with declining out-of-state students in favor of comparable California students. It's just that to afford that, the UC system needs more money. Heck, I even think price gouging out-of-state applicants could work.

Re: UC proposes its first enrollment cap on out-of-state students

#57
post #51

The review that was done awhile ago showed that nonresidents reduced the amount of residents in the program, any attempt to merely walk-over the issue is a sign that you are lying and speaking in poor faith. As if there never was any negative set of circumstances that could be predicated fundamentally on the idea that did in people from here , all that talk, and all that pretense when you rap to just your favorite mu…

>The review that was done awhile ago showed that nonresidents reduced the amount of residents in the program Cf. what the audit actually found: >The audit found that out-of-state applicants benefited from lowered admission standards [italics mine], while California students increasingly were turned away from their campus of choice. The only reason to give out-of-state students lower admission standards than in-state…

No it wasn't members of the Californian assembly immediately moved to counter-act the program, we only had to to this because our budget was in dire straights, it was an emergency programme, you are acting like that this was a straight +E.V. operation, however if it was necessarily a straight +E.V. operation it would have likely been enacted in an environment that was non-emergency, however it wasn't, which shows that the state assembly when it really came down to it acted because it was a hail mary maneuver and that it really came down to needing $$$$$ if anyone remembers how those days felt. And they quickly acted to remove such deficits.

You are pretending that this was a no-brainer certain investment, this is an investment that produced significant gains, but the fact is that there should not exist any no-loss m, positive investments that make money without having some rebounding consequence anywhere else, otherwise this would have already been an investment taken, and because of the "No easy money clause" (E. Thorpe) related to investments and the literature on interest rates(LITERALLY the return on capital) we know that this is false.

You are trying to cite empirical evidence to lend warrant toward the thesis that this little out of state admissions thing was a very good thing with no downside, but as far as I know there are many no-go theorems or prohibition statements on that actually. As if there was that much free money and free wealth to be created from one decision that was an effective positive creation of wealth without any subtractive element on it!

There is simply no way that this decision was just sitting for us to take that provided this much of a net benefit, far above the rate of market returns. As if we are supposed to dignify a statement that acts like that space something operating in real time and space cannot be taken up and filled by the admission of out of state students and that this could not be filled up....... i'm sure your local taco stand doesn't fill up with the late-nite party bus of whomever out of towners comes to order food. We're all able to order right away baby, man, this is great.

Re: UC proposes its first enrollment cap on out-of-state students

#58
post #56
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's because nonresident admissions don't reduce the absolute number of Californians the system can support! They pay much more in tuition than the UC spends on their education, and much of the remainder gets spent on in-state residents. In-state admissions have fallen at highly competitive schools like UCLA not because out-of-state students are taking up more of a set number of spots, but because the amount of in-…

Mass accepting out-of-state students is most certainly not a solution, it's a band-aid (not to mention it basically screws California taxpayers). The solution would be to just increase state funding AND cap out-of-state admit rates. It's very hard for Berkeley and UCLA to stay competitive with Stanford and Caltech (and the Ivy League) when their private counterparts not only offer better financial aid for at-need low…

Frankly it's a travesty that the state is funding SF-LA high speed rail with questionable need and returns over its students.

Re: UC proposes its first enrollment cap on out-of-state students

#59
> Her own child was turned down by her top three UC choices two years ago, despite SAT scores and a grade point average above the 90th percentile. Her daughter ended up at a fourth UC campus.

Why not simply follows Texas' Top 10% Rule[1] ?

> The law guarantees Texas students who graduated in the top ten percent of their high school class automatic admission to all state-funded universities

This top 10% rule, (in conjunction with a minimum SAT to avoid bad schools) would solve that mom problem (assuming the child is above the 90th percentile for that particular school).

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_House_Bill_588

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