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Getting out of the cloud…

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Re: Getting out of the cloud…

#51

Post by Ntrails »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #46
emptyfile wrote: post #38

Starting to think the Trump presidency will be great for Europe, by making it politically unfeasible for European politicians to continue pretending the US is a good ally, leader of the free world, champion of liberal values, etc... The US fifth column voluntarily leaving the EU will surely expedite the process.

> Starting to think the Trump presidency will be great for Europe I'm in Europe and I'm getting seriously worried the US will start the Third World War within coming months...

Why? What warmongering have you seen? What has been done thus far that wasn't broadcasted in the campaign? Where in the campaign was there indication that he'd want to start a war?

I'm not saying it's impossible that trump could be offensive enough to cause an attack on the US which then results in offensive US action - but I've seen nothing to indicate he'll go looking to do so as a matter of policy.

Hyperbole is everywhere at the moment and whilst it makes for pithy comment it detracts from realistic concerns about the outcomes of his policy decisions. By giving people easy excuses to ignore "anti trump" comments (because they're a mixture of valid concerns and silliness) you grant him more freedom.

He is probably less likely to actively pursue conflict with Russia than his alternative, and he's reaffirmed support for NATO (which was no doubt part of the package traded for a non critical stance by the UK PM).

Re: Getting out of the cloud…

#52

Post by shaki-dora »

emptyfile wrote: post #38

Starting to think the Trump presidency will be great for Europe, by making it politically unfeasible for European politicians to continue pretending the US is a good ally, leader of the free world, champion of liberal values, etc... The US fifth column voluntarily leaving the EU will surely expedite the process.

By any objective standard, the last 70 years were the best ever for Europe, and the world as a whole. There are certainly differences of opinion and interests between Europe and the US, but they are far from negating the overlaps. The ideas that the US has propagated are fundamentally sound, and any US hypocrisy may undermine the effort to spread them, but not the value they offer.

If you are an average citizen anywhere in Europe, throwing the dice in either the time or spatial dimensions is a losing proposition: there is almost no time nor place of higher prosperity, lower physical danger, better chances regardless of class/gender/race/etc, higher life expectancy, more vibrant cultural life, more freedom to explore your interest/kinks/obsessions etc. And the shift of the US under Trump is a throw of the dice in the best case. In reality, it is unlikely that a new world order build by an orange buffoon could in any way rival the current one, which was build by people who had the foresight and moral compass to invest trillions into a continent, and even the very country that had just plunged the world into the darkest crevice of history.

I'm not saying that all is well, just that we are, historically, closer to the best than the worst, or even to average. But any assertion that the system was fundamentally broken is obviously not supported by the outcomes it produced, and the way to optimise a system running at it's historical best involves carefully planned tuning, not destroying it with a sledgehammer and asking a reality TV character to build a new one.

Re: Getting out of the cloud…

#53

Post by TeMPOraL »

Ntrails wrote: post #51
TeMPOraL wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Starting to think the Trump presidency will be great for Europe I'm in Europe and I'm getting seriously worried the US will start the Third World War within coming months...

Why? What warmongering have you seen? What has been done thus far that wasn't broadcasted in the campaign? Where in the campaign was there indication that he'd want to start a war? I'm not saying it's impossible that trump could be offensive enough to cause an attack on the US which then results in offensive US action - but I've seen nothing to indicate he'll go looking to do so as a matter of policy. Hyperbole is ev…

I haven't seen any warmongering. But what was broadcasted in the campaign I honestly rejected as too ridiculous to be true, and a case of media exaggerating about a candidate they don't like.

But now it turns out that what was broadcasted in the campaign is in fact what the current President means to do, and this is scary. From what I remember from my history lessons, it smells too much of how Hitler started his rule, and I don't recall him saying he wants to invade the rest of Europe either. That only came up after he was entrenched in power and stepped up the internal purges.

Assuming this doesn't happen, there's also a second scenario I fear - the US will say "fuck you Europe" and utterly withdraw, and Russia will get expansionist ideas.

Either way, I don't feel that what's going on leads to a safe and stable life here in Europe. (And that's beside the fact that the same sentiments that led to Trump's victory is also clearly visible in many parts of Europe; with nationalist tendencies on the rise, EU breakup and/or a war in Europe aren't beyond possibility).

Call me paranoid, but I am afraid. Not in a hypothetical way, I actually stress over it and it impares my day-to-day life.

Re: Getting out of the cloud…

#54

Post by corv »

shaki-dora wrote: post #52
emptyfile wrote: post #38

Starting to think the Trump presidency will be great for Europe, by making it politically unfeasible for European politicians to continue pretending the US is a good ally, leader of the free world, champion of liberal values, etc... The US fifth column voluntarily leaving the EU will surely expedite the process.

By any objective standard, the last 70 years were the best ever for Europe, and the world as a whole. There are certainly differences of opinion and interests between Europe and the US, but they are far from negating the overlaps. The ideas that the US has propagated are fundamentally sound, and any US hypocrisy may undermine the effort to spread them, but not the value they offer. If you are an average citizen anywh…

Not at all. There is many a lost generation in European countries.

Re: Getting out of the cloud…

#55

Post by TeMPOraL »

shaki-dora wrote: post #52
emptyfile wrote: post #38

Starting to think the Trump presidency will be great for Europe, by making it politically unfeasible for European politicians to continue pretending the US is a good ally, leader of the free world, champion of liberal values, etc... The US fifth column voluntarily leaving the EU will surely expedite the process.

By any objective standard, the last 70 years were the best ever for Europe, and the world as a whole. There are certainly differences of opinion and interests between Europe and the US, but they are far from negating the overlaps. The ideas that the US has propagated are fundamentally sound, and any US hypocrisy may undermine the effort to spread them, but not the value they offer. If you are an average citizen anywh…

> If you are an average citizen anywhere in Europe, throwing the dice in either the time or spatial dimensions is a losing proposition: there is almost no time nor place of higher prosperity, lower physical danger, better chances regardless of class/gender/race/etc, higher life expectancy, more vibrant cultural life, more freedom to explore your interest/kinks/obsessions etc.

Exactly. And at the risk of sounding entitled, privileged or whatever, I like it this way. I would like this to stay. The changes happening in US (and similar ones starting to happen in Europe) threaten this.

And sure, it's not fair to everyone all the time. But it's like some people these days think that if they can just blow everything up, things will be better for them, that it'll improve their relative well-being. It won't. Destabilizing things isn't beneficial for anyone.

Re: Getting out of the cloud…

#56

Post by TeMPOraL »

corv wrote: post #54
shaki-dora wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By any objective standard, the last 70 years were the best ever for Europe, and the world as a whole. There are certainly differences of opinion and interests between Europe and the US, but they are far from negating the overlaps. The ideas that the US has propagated are fundamentally sound, and any US hypocrisy may undermine the effort to spread them, but not the value they offer. If you are an average citizen anywh…

Not at all. There is many a lost generation in European countries.

Best for the entire group on average != best for some subset of that group. But it seems to me that some people believe they'll be happier if they pull the world back to year 1940.

Re: Getting out of the cloud…

#57

Post by hedonistbot »

Dear HN, please scale down the panic.

>President Trump’s Executive Order calls for federal agencies in the U.S. to ensure that their privacy notices make clear that Privacy Act protections extend only to citizens and permanent residents of the U.S. Importantly, Article 14 of the Order explicitly states that the federal agencies must do so in a manner that is “consistent with applicable law.” In the context of EU-U.S. data transfers for law enforcement purposes, the Judicial Redress Act constitutes applicable law, and thus President Trump’s Executive Order, as written, should not impact the Judicial Redress Act’s extension of the Privacy Act’s protections to citizens of the EU. As a result, absent further action from the U.S. government, we do not expect this Executive Order to impact the legal viability of the Privacy Shield Framework.

https://www.huntonprivacyblog.com/2017/01/28/privacy-shield-...

Re: Getting out of the cloud…

#58

Post by kirushik »

Ntrails wrote: post #51
TeMPOraL wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Starting to think the Trump presidency will be great for Europe I'm in Europe and I'm getting seriously worried the US will start the Third World War within coming months...

Why? What warmongering have you seen? What has been done thus far that wasn't broadcasted in the campaign? Where in the campaign was there indication that he'd want to start a war? I'm not saying it's impossible that trump could be offensive enough to cause an attack on the US which then results in offensive US action - but I've seen nothing to indicate he'll go looking to do so as a matter of policy. Hyperbole is ev…

> Where in the campaign was there indication that he'd want to start a war?

Just as my 2 cents, Mr. Trump definitely stated several times that he wants to re-thinkthe whole NATO, UN and the international security system in general.

I can easily imagine him making the same bold and unprofessional moves as everywhere else. And if that happens, it will definitely open up some new possibilities for international conflict.

Re: Getting out of the cloud…

#59

Post by marcosdumay »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #46
emptyfile wrote: post #38

Starting to think the Trump presidency will be great for Europe, by making it politically unfeasible for European politicians to continue pretending the US is a good ally, leader of the free world, champion of liberal values, etc... The US fifth column voluntarily leaving the EU will surely expedite the process.

> Starting to think the Trump presidency will be great for Europe I'm in Europe and I'm getting seriously worried the US will start the Third World War within coming months...

I commented about this yesterday. It's the third time in a row that the US people elected the person that wasn't supported by the Pentagon. That's a welcome change, even if he is a total asshole.

Re: Getting out of the cloud…

#60

Post by marcosdumay »

kirushik wrote: post #58
Ntrails wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? What warmongering have you seen? What has been done thus far that wasn't broadcasted in the campaign? Where in the campaign was there indication that he'd want to start a war? I'm not saying it's impossible that trump could be offensive enough to cause an attack on the US which then results in offensive US action - but I've seen nothing to indicate he'll go looking to do so as a matter of policy. Hyperbole is ev…

> Where in the campaign was there indication that he'd want to start a war? Just as my 2 cents, Mr. Trump definitely stated several times that he wants to re-thinkthe whole NATO, UN and the international security system in general. I can easily imagine him making the same bold and unprofessional moves as everywhere else. And if that happens, it will definitely open up some new possibilities for international conflict…

He also said he wants to be friendly to Russia and take US troops the hell out of the Mid-West.

But well, promising is easy, and he is not the first to promise those exact things.

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