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Announcing Pipenv

kennethreitz.org

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Re: Announcing Pipenv

#51

Post by cderwin »

ploggingdev wrote: post #32
cderwin wrote: post #24

This is great, but sometimes I think that python needs a new package manager from scratch instead of more tools trying to mix and mash a bunch of flawed tools together in a way that's palatable by most of us. Python packaging sucks, the whole lot of it. Maybe I'm just spoiled by rust and elixir, but setuptools, distutils, pip, ez_install, all of it is really subpar. But of course everything uses pypi and pip now, so…

Just curious, what aspects of pip/virtualenv specifically do you find subpar in comparison to other languages' package managers.

I would look at this comment[0] by sametmax for a critique of pip. My main gripe with virtualenv is that it's required at all: other interpreted languages, like node and elixir for example, have figured out how to handle non-global dependencies without a third-party package. Beyond that, it's frustrating to deploy because its non-relocatable (in our build/deploy scripts at my last python job we had to use sed all over the place to fix paths), and I find it semi-annoying to have a bunch of different copies of interpreter and all that goes with it (though this is mostly a minor annoyance -- it doesn't take up that much space and it doesn't matter if it gets out of sync.

Also notable, IMO, is the lack of a tool like rbenv or rustup for python. I can't tell you how many times I have had to try to figure out which python version a given pip executable worked with.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13460490

Re: Announcing Pipenv

#52

Post by renesd »

kenneth_reitz wrote: post #21
renesd wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks.

Also `pipenv install -r requirements.txt` is supported, for importing.

That's nice.

Have you seen fades [0]?

It lets you do things like::

    fades --requirement requirements.txt myscript.py
You can also mark the dependencies in your myscript.py as comments. The use case is for quick one off scripts which may require a bunch of different requirements. The integration with ipython is nice for experimenting too. I think pyenv could be useful for that use case of little one off experiments too.

One enhancement I'd like for it to also run modules or entry points like:

    fades --dependency pygame -m pygame.examples.aliens
Setuptools entry points like used in console_scripts to work would be nice too:

    fades --dependency pyenv -m pyenv.cli:cli
Or the best::

    fades -m pygame.examples.aliens
So it can create a virtualenv, see that it needs the package (pygame here), and then install that package with pip, and then run the module or entry point.

Anyway... just some dreaming. Can I haz pony? All this is exciting.

[0] https://github.com/PyAr/fades

Re: Announcing Pipenv

#53

Post by renesd »

sametmax wrote: post #42
ghshephard wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay - maybe I'm missing something, but pip is the only Python package manager I've ever used. And it's basically "pip install xxx", "pip install --upgrade xxx", "pip show xxx", "pip list", "pip uninstall xxx" I'm curious what I've been missing about pip that makes it problematic - I've never used the other tools you mentioned (setuptools/distutils/ez_install) - so I can't comment on them, but, on the flip side, I've…

One things is a good dependency management. Right now if you want to upgrade your Python version, or one of your packages, it's a mountain of manual work. There is nothing in the stack helping you with the dependency graph. Another thing is providing a stand alone build. Something you can just ship without asking the client to run commands in the terminal to make it work. I use nuikta ( http://nuitka.net/ ) for this.…

Nice list of warts.

Re: Announcing Pipenv

#55

Post by schlumpf »

sametmax wrote: post #42
ghshephard wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay - maybe I'm missing something, but pip is the only Python package manager I've ever used. And it's basically "pip install xxx", "pip install --upgrade xxx", "pip show xxx", "pip list", "pip uninstall xxx" I'm curious what I've been missing about pip that makes it problematic - I've never used the other tools you mentioned (setuptools/distutils/ez_install) - so I can't comment on them, but, on the flip side, I've…

One things is a good dependency management. Right now if you want to upgrade your Python version, or one of your packages, it's a mountain of manual work. There is nothing in the stack helping you with the dependency graph. Another thing is providing a stand alone build. Something you can just ship without asking the client to run commands in the terminal to make it work. I use nuikta ( http://nuitka.net/ ) for this.…

This. Particularly the need for a minimum standard project structure.

Pipenv shows its pedigree and looks like a great tool...that also overlaps significantly with conda. What are the use cases that Pipenv addresses better than/in lieu of conda?

Re: Announcing Pipenv

#56

Post by sametmax »

renesd wrote: post #36
cderwin wrote: post #24

This is great, but sometimes I think that python needs a new package manager from scratch instead of more tools trying to mix and mash a bunch of flawed tools together in a way that's palatable by most of us. Python packaging sucks, the whole lot of it. Maybe I'm just spoiled by rust and elixir, but setuptools, distutils, pip, ez_install, all of it is really subpar. But of course everything uses pypi and pip now, so…

I think python packaging has gotten LOTS better in the last few years. I find it quite pleasurable to use these days. From binary wheels (including on different linux architectures), to things like local caching of packages (taking LOTS of load off the main servers). To the organisation github of pypa [0], to `python -m venv` working. Also lots of work around standardising things in peps, and writing documentation fo…

+1. Relatively to what we have before, it's so much better. But compared to the JS/Rust ecosystem, we are behind.

Now it's hard to compete with JS on some stuff : it's the only language in the most popular dev plateform (the web) and it has one implicit standardized async model by default.

It's hard to compete with rust on some stuff : it's compiled and is fast, can provide stand alone binaries easily and has a checker that can avoid many bugs.

But this. The package manager. We can compete. And yet we are late.

It's partially my fault since it's a project I had in mind for years and never took the time to work on. It's partially everybody's fault I guess :)

Re: Announcing Pipenv

#57

Post by annnnd »

sametmax wrote: post #42
ghshephard wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay - maybe I'm missing something, but pip is the only Python package manager I've ever used. And it's basically "pip install xxx", "pip install --upgrade xxx", "pip show xxx", "pip list", "pip uninstall xxx" I'm curious what I've been missing about pip that makes it problematic - I've never used the other tools you mentioned (setuptools/distutils/ez_install) - so I can't comment on them, but, on the flip side, I've…

One things is a good dependency management. Right now if you want to upgrade your Python version, or one of your packages, it's a mountain of manual work. There is nothing in the stack helping you with the dependency graph. Another thing is providing a stand alone build. Something you can just ship without asking the client to run commands in the terminal to make it work. I use nuikta ( http://nuitka.net/ ) for this.…

Nice list! We manage to avoid most problems with distribution by using Docker containers, but it brings its own set of problems and downsides. I would love to have a better solution!

Re: Announcing Pipenv

#58

Post by catdog »

cderwin wrote: post #51
ploggingdev wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just curious, what aspects of pip/virtualenv specifically do you find subpar in comparison to other languages' package managers.

I would look at this comment[0] by sametmax for a critique of pip. My main gripe with virtualenv is that it's required at all: other interpreted languages, like node and elixir for example, have figured out how to handle non-global dependencies without a third-party package. Beyond that, it's frustrating to deploy because its non-relocatable (in our build/deploy scripts at my last python job we had to use sed all ove…

> Beyond that, it's frustrating to deploy because its non-relocatable (in our build/deploy scripts at my last python job we had to use sed all over the place to fix paths)

pip does cache the wheels so instead of moving the virtualenvs around, just recreate them. This also ensures the virtualenv is up to date. Using tox this is fairly easy to do.

Sure virtualenv is a bit of a hack but it's not that bad.

Re: Announcing Pipenv

#59

Post by StavrosK »

sametmax wrote: post #42
ghshephard wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay - maybe I'm missing something, but pip is the only Python package manager I've ever used. And it's basically "pip install xxx", "pip install --upgrade xxx", "pip show xxx", "pip list", "pip uninstall xxx" I'm curious what I've been missing about pip that makes it problematic - I've never used the other tools you mentioned (setuptools/distutils/ez_install) - so I can't comment on them, but, on the flip side, I've…

One things is a good dependency management. Right now if you want to upgrade your Python version, or one of your packages, it's a mountain of manual work. There is nothing in the stack helping you with the dependency graph. Another thing is providing a stand alone build. Something you can just ship without asking the client to run commands in the terminal to make it work. I use nuikta ( http://nuitka.net/ ) for this.…

I kind of want to take your list and write a tool that fixes (or, at least, automatically works around) all of these issues. Good job.

Re: Announcing Pipenv

#60

Post by [deleted] »

cderwin wrote: post #24

This is great, but sometimes I think that python needs a new package manager from scratch instead of more tools trying to mix and mash a bunch of flawed tools together in a way that's palatable by most of us. Python packaging sucks, the whole lot of it. Maybe I'm just spoiled by rust and elixir, but setuptools, distutils, pip, ez_install, all of it is really subpar. But of course everything uses pypi and pip now, so…

[deleted]
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