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Google reveals its servers all contain custom security silicon

theregister.co.uk

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Re: Google reveals its servers all contain custom security silicon

#51

Post by nickpsecurity »

NelsonMinar wrote: post #33

This is what security looks like when your threat model is well funded government agencies.

Same threat model with black hats. Here's a recent example from high-security field that's remarkably simple but stops tons of attacks:

http://www.cc.gatech.edu/grads/c/csong43/oakland16-hdfi.pdf

Its related work & extension page has a ton of references to other things showing just how much work it is to stop regular black hats in systems without verified software. Nation states just do more of the same stuff.

Edmison's has a nice survey & design for when you don't trust anything outside the SOC:

https://theses.lib.vt.edu/theses/available/etd-10112006-2048...

NSA targets those levels, too. At that point, your bases are covered so long as the fab receives and doesn't alter your design. Plus the complex tooling works...

Re: Google reveals its servers all contain custom security silicon

#52

Post by foobiekr »

The actual document - https://cloud.google.com/security/security-design/ - was linked previously.

It is interesting that they are doing some variant of trusted computing mostly because their homogeneity would allow Google to build a robust containment architecture with much more rigorous whitelisting and a robust SW distribution rules that go beyond what a measuring host and local SW bundle verification can do. So defense in depth.

We (skyport systems) do the same thing as a service for enterprises (we sell and operate cloud-managed trusted systems as a service) and I will say it's pretty hard to get people to think about depth and trustworthiness when the entire security industry has trained CIOs to believe that all they need to do is install some random agent on their VMs.

Good for Google.

Re: Google reveals its servers all contain custom security silicon

#53

Post by nickpsecurity »

amelius wrote: post #37

But if they don't own an IC fab, how do they know it is secure?

They don't. Too many attack vectors. I illustrate here:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10468624

My solution was to print the TCB on a process node that was verifiable by eye. Then, verify a random sample of each batch. Possibly speed it up with image processing algorithms if producing the same component or components.

Note: Deviations from intended circuitry in deep sub-micron can have measurable differences at analog or RF level. DARPA is funding research to do such things. A monitor at visible node could then be combined with CPU's on cutting-edge node. Common practice in commercial sector is obfuscations, though.

Re: Google reveals its servers all contain custom security silicon

#54

Post by DannyB2 »

dx034 wrote: post #40
NelsonMinar wrote: post #33

This is what security looks like when your threat model is well funded government agencies.

Exactly, and I think it's worth noting that they likely only apply this level of security because of state actors. Which then shows that they are trying to prevent eavesdropping by NSA & Co., they probably just realized too late how far advanced they were.

. . . how far advanced, and the lengths they would go to.

Re: Google reveals its servers all contain custom security silicon

#55

Post by beambot »

azernik wrote: post #25
_yosefk wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not the cloud - it's the sad downside of the democratization of hardware design, as in fabs like TSMC and IP companies like ARM making it relatively cheap to make your own chips with competitive functionality in a wide range of areas. There's a lot of custom hardware outside the cloud, say in embedded electronics, that's just as closed as the stuff in server farms - closed specs and no way to program the thing,…

Another good example that I have experience with - closed firmware blobs in everyone's wifi chipsets and cell phone basebands. Early-standard ARM processors are cheap enough to embed in peripherals these days, making it easy to hide your functionality in hard-to-extract embedded software.

They are even embedded in micro SD cards...

https://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?p=3554

Re: Google reveals its servers all contain custom security silicon

#56

Post by hedora »

vgt wrote: post #10
sergiosgc wrote: post #5

This is another signal of an interesting development on the hardware front. What used to be decoupled, with some companies offering hardware, and different companies buying hardware, is now coupled and hidden within these mega-companies (Google, Amazon, FB). Google is big enough to develop a trusted hardware solution for internal use only, it has no financial need to sell it. Worse, due to competitiveness in the clou…

It's a sign of changing times indeed, but for the consumer's benefit. It is absolutely in Google's best interests to externalize security for its customers as a differentiator of Google Cloud. The parent article itself links to the white paper that outlines how this is done for Google Cloud. I understand how one may consider this a "closed ecosystem" from one perspective. However, from a customer point of view any st…

I've worked on both sides of the fence. My take on it is that the cloud is raising the security bar in many dimensions, but lowering it in otheres. Frankly, for-profit surveillance (and government conspirators) is at the top of my list of security concerns.

The good news is that the "evil" mega corps aren't so evil, and generally contribute back.

Also, the bar for custom hardware is dropping, and the recent moore's law stall means a good board design can live for 3-6 years instead of 1-2. In turn, this means that niche operating systems like BSD and opensource Solaris have increasingly stable hardware targets.

Taken together, this is great news.

Re: Google reveals its servers all contain custom security silicon

#57

Post by amelius »

swegg wrote: post #49
amelius wrote: post #37

But if they don't own an IC fab, how do they know it is secure?

Basically splitting the trusted circuit and testing the parts separately. This requires a trusted master circuit, but it can be arbitrarily small. See https://perso.uclouvain.be/fstandae/PUBLIS/177.pdf

But what if the malicious code is time activated? (just an example)

Re: Google reveals its servers all contain custom security silicon

#58

Post by true_religion »

amelius wrote: post #36
sergiosgc wrote: post #5

This is another signal of an interesting development on the hardware front. What used to be decoupled, with some companies offering hardware, and different companies buying hardware, is now coupled and hidden within these mega-companies (Google, Amazon, FB). Google is big enough to develop a trusted hardware solution for internal use only, it has no financial need to sell it. Worse, due to competitiveness in the clou…

I think we should limit companies to a maximum of N employees. This will ensure more modularity in the market. And more competition as well, because barriers are lower.

I read a sci-fi story with this premise.

Companies could only be as large as X before starting to pay prohibitively large taxes in order to stay 'for profit entities' or become companies devoted to the public good.

So you'd end up with large telecoms who were non-profits dedicated to improving the level of global interconnectivity, and lots and lots of tiny 2-10 man companies that did research or sales.

Re: Google reveals its servers all contain custom security silicon

#59

Post by nickik »

dx034 wrote: post #40
NelsonMinar wrote: post #33

This is what security looks like when your threat model is well funded government agencies.

Exactly, and I think it's worth noting that they likely only apply this level of security because of state actors. Which then shows that they are trying to prevent eavesdropping by NSA & Co., they probably just realized too late how far advanced they were.

Eric Grosse from Google says as much here, ...

Edit, it seems I have copied the wrong video, please us the link in the child comment

Re: Google reveals its servers all contain custom security silicon

#60

Post by a_imho »

dx034 wrote: post #40
NelsonMinar wrote: post #33

This is what security looks like when your threat model is well funded government agencies.

Exactly, and I think it's worth noting that they likely only apply this level of security because of state actors. Which then shows that they are trying to prevent eavesdropping by NSA & Co., they probably just realized too late how far advanced they were.

Which then shows that they are trying to prevent eavesdropping by NSA & Co.

Why would the NSA eavesdrop on Google, they are in bed with them, aren't they?

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