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Deep Work: A welcome kick in the butt

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Re: Deep Work: A welcome kick in the butt

#51

How does this work if you're on a "manager schedule" and 50% or more of your job is supposed to be dealing with interruptions, having ad-hoc conversations, and the like?

I haven't read this book but in my experience, "shallow" work is also a necessity, always has been; it's just that in last decade or so we seem to have glorified it and let it replace all other forms of working.

IMHO it's not a matter of avoiding shallow work altogether, but more about blocking off time and space to really think and prioritize rather than react react react. As a manager I'd imagine you'd need less of this time than your direct reports but it'd be good to help protect their focus as much as you can, assuming they want it. (Depending on the nature of the work, some people seem to thrive on bite-size jobs.)

Re: Deep Work: A welcome kick in the butt

#52
I agree that social media and internet is a great distraction. But co-workers can be a source of good distractions. However for the distractions to be good. Everyone must be on track, around the same knowledge levels and focused on what problems needs to be solved. If you don't have these kind of colleagues, you might as well stay at home. When you are at work you will have to answer questions from those who didn't get the memo...

Re: Deep Work: A welcome kick in the butt

#53
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>People expect you to have Gmail and Slack open all day and to reply in the 5 minutes. When I was looking for my last job, I explicitly queried about this: "Will it be OK if I check my email only 3 times a day (at work)?" In my previous job, too much work was done through email. Person wants me to do some work and return a plot. I send it to him. Within 5-30 minutes, he has a question about it. I have to respond soon…

-"have to respond soon." What is it about the email that makes you think you have to respond soon? Is it the culture at the company around email? I work at a non-technology Fortune 500 in the IT dept. (I work remote, too) and the general expectation is that we check our email 2-4 times a day. Occasionally I go a day going through my inbox once all day, and it has never been a problem. I suppose it is a company cultur…

Frequent sender of such E-mails chiming in here:

Often when there is a response expectation, I'll explicitly say so in the subject, so that if you're scanning your E-mails it will stick out. Will also specify my default assumption should you not respond. I like to be super clear. Company culture is the product of the people who participate in company culture.

SUBJ: [Reply needed by 5PM] Deadline for project approval approaching

(somewhere in body): Blah, blah, blah. If I do not hear back, I will assume we will go forward with the project.

Re: Deep Work: A welcome kick in the butt

#54
post #5
post #2

>Extending the length of the 25 minute pomodoro. If I’m in the deep work flow, I’ll continue past the 25 minute alarm. Someone told me that its 25 minutes because it prevents you from building too much context in your head that prevents you from taking a break at 25 min mark. You can't do creative work if your brain is filled with lot of context. eg: TDD goes really well with pomodoro because you are only thinking ab…

I'll be honest; I've never understood this mindset. The idea of purposefully interrupting my flow every 25 minutes, explicitly dropping my context is ghastly. If you could design an ideal hell for me it would involve hard, interesting programming problems and constant (every ~10-20 minute) seemingly random external interruptions. (Its not an accident that I don't have children.) Most of the work I'm really proud of h…

I think it suits your style of programming. My guess is you work in large repositories where you need to keep many complex data structures in your head in order to reason about what the code is doing. That's quite a common way of programming, and it does necessitate large blocks of undistracted time.

The Pomodoro/25 minute approach your OP is advocating I think requires that you write software a different way. You can't write big source files that reference hundreds of data structures. You can't write modules that require other modules to be structured just-so in order for things to work. You can't throw hundreds of views, models, etc, into a big repo and let them all call each other. You have to spend time constantly creating new interfaces, shuffling responsibilities around, and generally keeping your codebase such that no particular module requires you to reason much about the modules other than its few neighbors.

Frameworks tend to discourage this way of programming, because they want to give you a small set of primitives and have you fit everything into one of those boxes.

But if you can manage it, by avoiding frameworks, learning about all of the component systems available to you, and getting comfortable writing your own middleware, the 25 minute requirement can actually help you, since if you find a problem that you can't wrap your head around in 25 minutes, you know your next task is to move some module boundaries around so that you can get a clearer view of the problem.

Many software teams choose to operate on the bleeding edge of "could a very smart, full-time programmer with a lot of coffee understand what's happening after poking around for a couple hours?" rather than "does this interface create a region of the codebase which can be independently understood?"

Re: Deep Work: A welcome kick in the butt

#57
post #5
post #2

>Extending the length of the 25 minute pomodoro. If I’m in the deep work flow, I’ll continue past the 25 minute alarm. Someone told me that its 25 minutes because it prevents you from building too much context in your head that prevents you from taking a break at 25 min mark. You can't do creative work if your brain is filled with lot of context. eg: TDD goes really well with pomodoro because you are only thinking ab…

I'll be honest; I've never understood this mindset. The idea of purposefully interrupting my flow every 25 minutes, explicitly dropping my context is ghastly. If you could design an ideal hell for me it would involve hard, interesting programming problems and constant (every ~10-20 minute) seemingly random external interruptions. (Its not an accident that I don't have children.) Most of the work I'm really proud of h…

I think 25 minutes (or 20, in some versions) may be the ideal time period to get you started; not to get you to stop. It's easy to convince yourself to shut down your email, not look at any distracting websites, etc., if you can tell yourself that you have to keep it up for only 25 minutes. Once you get going, you may be able to work effectively and without distraction for a full hour, but if the pomodoro period were set to an hour to begin with, you might never have started.

Re: Deep Work: A welcome kick in the butt

#58
post #4

i've never seen anyone actually use a pomodoro in real life, and the occasional day i've given it s a shot, I end up thinking "this is silly, I'll just focus on my work". I guess my protest is that it seems silly, especially when I'm focused on something and the timer goes off and I'm supposed to stop. It seems like its adding structure only for the sake of structure. Has anyone actually started using pomo, and stuck…

For me it's a tool of last resort. For 95% of my day-to-day work, I neither use nor need pomodoro's kick in the butt. But a few times per year these dreaded tasks come up that I just cannot get myself to do in a reasonable timeframe, and in those situations pomodoro sometimes helps, just to get going.

Re: Deep Work: A welcome kick in the butt

#59
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you mind me asking if you are self-employed? The rhythm you describe very exciting, but impossible in most work places. What you are doing though is probably the only work pattern that surely qualifies as "a sprint".

> I just think they should be about 1 week in length. > I usually need a couple of weeks recovery time And exactly like a real sprint (running very fast) a period of resting is necessary after such an effort, usually longer than the execution time spent.

Yes! I couldn't agree more. I'm happy to sprint. If do it much rather than a marathon. But only if I get a break after it. Otherwise it's a marathon that you start out running like it was a sprint and fail.

Re: Deep Work: A welcome kick in the butt

#60
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll be honest; I've never understood this mindset. The idea of purposefully interrupting my flow every 25 minutes, explicitly dropping my context is ghastly. If you could design an ideal hell for me it would involve hard, interesting programming problems and constant (every ~10-20 minute) seemingly random external interruptions. (Its not an accident that I don't have children.) Most of the work I'm really proud of h…

I think it suits your style of programming. My guess is you work in large repositories where you need to keep many complex data structures in your head in order to reason about what the code is doing. That's quite a common way of programming, and it does necessitate large blocks of undistracted time. The Pomodoro/25 minute approach your OP is advocating I think requires that you write software a different way. You ca…

80% of the programming I do is the style you suggest. But ... software development has bifurcated into two skills, and we don't yet have the words to differentiate them.

- There's the technician skill, where you poke at your react elements and fiddle with CSS until it looks like the mockup the designers gave you. Every 20 minutes you need to trawl through stackoverflow to find the exact way to use flexbox to get the layout you want, or to work around a bug in safari. When you're done you do some refactoring and feel good about it and call it a day.

- And there's the engineering skill, where you scratch your head and read wikipedia & some academic papers until you know what search terms to use. And then you realise that really you want something like an invertible bloom filter, except there's some small % chance it will fail each time you query it so you need a fallback mechanism. Except then you realise that fallback mechanism will have O(n^2) - but if you use a slightly different data structure then it'll become O(nlogn + klogk). But that requires modifications to the bloom filter itself and a funky network protocol, so you write that.

If the only programming you do is the first type, thats fine. Thats where we all start. Thats the majority of work out there. 25 minute pomodoros are probably fine for that. I like pair programming, because I can stay focussed better with a friend. Sometimes I listen to excited music while I work.

But all the work I'm most proud of is the second type. I wrote a streaming incremental compiler for a 2d air pressure based language. I got 90% of the way to making an OT algorithm work for arbitrary JSON structures (including object move), only to realise that it absolutely needs conflict markers so I put it down for awhile. I wrote a nodejs server from scratch thats compatible with google's browserchannel protocol - basically reimplementing TCP in the process. I implemented a PEG parser - and I'm going to need a session like this to add the ability to pass realtime streaming text updates through the parser.

These sorts of things can't be reduced to 25 minute context increments. They just need too much mental state. Maybe once they're done they can be broken down into pieces that you could explain in 25 minute chunks. But figuring out that some particular abstraction is the right one requires fitting the entire system together in your head, so you can turn it around. And thats a spacing out in the shower followed by a day with a whiteboard kind of task.

I guess the way I see it is that large amounts of uninterrupted time doesn't simply make it easier to do hard engineering. It makes it possible. Is that what the book refers to as deep work? If so then I think pomodoros are an anathema to that.

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