The Elves Leave Middle Earth – Sodas Are No Longer Free (2009) • Hacker News Board

Re: The Elves Leave Middle Earth – Sodas Are No Longer Free (2009)

#51

Post by AceyMan » Fri, Dec 09, 2016, 12:42 AM UTC

dpandey wrote: post #15

Small perks like free lunches, gym membership or a massage every month are huge in making employees happy. We're a seed funded company and provide free lunches to our employees. We also reimburse up to 100$ a month for fitness/gym memberships. Some of my friends working in large organizations don't get these perks, and point out that they're wasteful of a company that is cash flow negative and trying to conserve capi…

Just a brief +1 to this: I'm a fit guy who's traditionally been a fairly regular blood donor. My newest (and still current) firm has its offices a couple blocks from a permanent blood donation center, and since it's so easy to donate I started to do platelet donations, primarily since the refractory interval is much shorter than other donation types.

However, as some may know, apheresis takes considerably longer than other donation procedures (~ 2h45m), and at the time I had a PHB manager who wouldn't allow me the time to donate as often as I was able (and willing).

This really soured me on his leadership. An attitude such as you cite at Salesforce would have fostered in me a much stronger sense of symbiosis between me and the company.

So instead of "getting more work out" of me (his intent), instead he got an irritated employee who had little to no inclination to go above or beyond the minimum (wrt what he asked or expected, not in general).

I think my experience and attitude is a classic example of strict bean counting and lack of soft skills backfiring on companies (or managers) with similar methods.

Re: The Elves Leave Middle Earth – Sodas Are No Longer Free (2009)

#52

Post by ryanobjc » Fri, Dec 09, 2016, 12:46 AM UTC

mcguire wrote: post #8

" It never ceases to amaze me how many startups make the mistake of killing off the free drinks. " (One of the comments on the page.) But wait a minute. Killing off the free drinks is just the signpost. The change is primarily in the size and the culture of the company itself. Charging for sodas might be the first, but it isn't the biggest change that the company is going to, and going to have to, make as it grows. D…

Google isn't a 'happy fun startup self', but it is a pretty decent place to work. And people do care.

Also, they are de-emphasizing sodas, but what ones are there are free.

Re: The Elves Leave Middle Earth – Sodas Are No Longer Free (2009)

#53

Post by kevinstubbs » Fri, Dec 09, 2016, 12:58 AM UTC

gliese1337 wrote: post #43

kevinstubbs wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see what you're saying, but if everybody is getting paid at the breakeven, or close to breakeven point, the company is going to be starved of capital it needs to grow, take bets, weather a bad sales cycle, etc. Also, how can a company give bonuses or raises to employees when all employees are already being paid what the value they are generating for the company is? You can play with how short of the breakeven point…

I pretty much agree with you, but > Also, how can a company give bonuses or raises to employees when all employees are already being paid what the value they are generating for the company is? is a terrible argument. In the event that my boss determines that I deserve a bonus, I consider that an adjustment for mis-estimating my value when determining my original salary. If you pay me enough that you can't afford to p…

That's a fair criticism. You're right that with this system of paying somebody as close to their value as possible, bonuses and raises wouldn't make sense.

It did make me realize though, that there is a risk of having a downraise, if the value of what you produced in the past cycle is less than the one before that. Even with a hypothetical way to accurately estimate the value (unless we're averaging), having a downraise or even the risk of it, is a big hit against this system because of the stress it would create for some, imo. Additionally, for some people, there may not enough incentive to continue working in the current cycle, if they feel they have already delivered as much value as they feel they need. Some people would be content delivering 100k of value for instance, wherever that is in the cycle, while some would be trying to reach new heights.

Re: The Elves Leave Middle Earth – Sodas Are No Longer Free (2009)

#54

Post by davidw » Fri, Dec 09, 2016, 12:58 AM UTC

dpandey wrote: post #44

davidw wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the company genuinely cares about them They don't though, in most cases. All that stuff is just window dressing. I haven't thought about it a lot, but genuinely caring might mean not firing someone going through a rough patch, when their productivity is pretty bad.

I'd say that when you've worked at a company > 6 months, you know if your manager cares about you. You know if the management cares about you. Doesn't take much to figure that out. I think there are 1-1 and public ways of showing care. When an employee has a performance issue and is going through something rough, you have a private conversation, nobody else needs to know (unless they're impacted/frustrated and you le…

Thinking out loud: maybe "giving without expecting anything in return" ? Perks and compensation are things you mostly expect to get something back from.

Something genuinely nice/caring at the place I work now was the Wednesday before Thanksgiving where they just told everyone to go home after lunch and enjoy the long weekend.

Re: The Elves Leave Middle Earth – Sodas Are No Longer Free (2009)

#55

Post by grogenaut » Fri, Dec 09, 2016, 12:59 AM UTC

anthony-james wrote: post #19

As an accountant, I feel like employees are severely underpaid in highly-skilled markets (like tech, not accounting), and I think that companies don't actually capture the true cost of a single full time employee. Most see a salary, benefits, fringe costs (like hiring HR and finance teams), lunches, etc. Some of the better firms add in the cost of hiring employees with intangibles, like communication, poise, and prof…

Great offenses in football stop the other team from scoring all the time by monopolizing the football for 80% of the game. It's not just direct actions that are important it's indirect.

Re: The Elves Leave Middle Earth – Sodas Are No Longer Free (2009)

#56

Post by aoeuasdf1 » Fri, Dec 09, 2016, 1:00 AM UTC

Fnoord wrote: post #46

everyone wrote: post #22

The free soda n junk in startups is bullshit. I'd rather get paid a little more and spend that on what I choose (something healthy). Who would be enticed by that? What is enticing to me is the freedom to work how/where/when I want.

Agreed. TANSTAAFL, and I guess it is the old left (as in everyone equal) vs right (free choice) debate. We get free bread for lunch. Cool, but I don't wanna eat bread. Coffee is free. Cool, but it is bad quality, my el cheapo espresso machine at home is even better. Plus I'll experience a massive down in the evening. Oh hey, not the employer's problem. I've never seen free soda anywhere, but the thing is: it is just…

I agree with you - but there are two advantages to giving perks like food:

No transaction costs. Not just the actual monetary cost of the transaction, but no need to employ people to man registers, no need to wait in line to pay. And more subtly, no need to argue with yourself about whether it's worth it to buy the item you are consuming.

Secondly, these perks are bought in bulk and provided without having to pay income tax on them. So it's just cheaper than paying people more and having them buy the goods.

That being said, I do wish there were more healthy options by default.

Re: The Elves Leave Middle Earth – Sodas Are No Longer Free (2009)

#57

Post by mikestew » Fri, Dec 09, 2016, 1:02 AM UTC

serge2k wrote: post #42

kylec wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would be shocked if Amazon, Facebook, and Google don't still give away free sodas.

Amazon doesn't. Facebook and Google both give away free food, so I can't see why soda would be a problem. Microsoft has free soda and the food is fairly cheap.

Microsoft has free soda and the food is fairly cheap.

Eh? Could have changed since I was last there eleven years ago, but in the last four or five years of my tenure I rarely ate in the cafeterias because for less money I could get more and better food within a five minute walk. And I got to go for a walk at lunch. (So I guess I'm talking on the order of fifteen years ago. Never mind the old man in the corner mumbling to himself about how it was better, er I mean worse, back then.)

Re: The Elves Leave Middle Earth – Sodas Are No Longer Free (2009)

#58

Post by garysieling » Fri, Dec 09, 2016, 1:06 AM UTC

everyone wrote: post #22

The free soda n junk in startups is bullshit. I'd rather get paid a little more and spend that on what I choose (something healthy). Who would be enticed by that? What is enticing to me is the freedom to work how/where/when I want.

You do get the option of consuming it, which is worth at least a little if you ever want the convenience. Even if you never do, it's a good perk to have because it's so visible if it gets taken away.

Re: The Elves Leave Middle Earth – Sodas Are No Longer Free (2009)

#59

Post by garysieling » Fri, Dec 09, 2016, 1:11 AM UTC

pascalxus wrote: post #18

What? They quit the company because they no longer got free sodas? I'd rather have an extra 300$ of salary per year, than free cans of Sugar all year. And, if the best developers have so much bargaining power as to leave, just because of sodas, why aren't they leaving toxic work places like Amazon in droves? Other places are cutting cost in far more profound ways: laptops and computer equipment, etc.

I think that's probably over-estimating the case value by a fair amount, because the company should be buying in bulk. They also would take the expense off their taxes, whereas if you buy soda, both of you pay taxes.

Re: The Elves Leave Middle Earth – Sodas Are No Longer Free (2009)

#60

Post by azernik » Fri, Dec 09, 2016, 1:13 AM UTC

anthony-james wrote: post #28

feral wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're paying an engineer $100k to add 150k worth of value to your product, the true value of their work is $300k: $150k worth of value to you, and $150k worth of value that isn't added to your next closest competitor. That model seems to assume: - every employee who leaves will go to close competitors - their work for that close competitor will be perfectly zero-sum to their work for your company - the next best…

It does assume these things - but they're relatively reasonable. If your next closest competitor is doing worse than you, then your best employees, on average, must be better than their average employee. If an employee leaves your company for your competitor, they're adding value Day 1, whereas you have to go through the process of hiring a replacement, and hoping that they're just as good. It also assumes that you d…

That second one? Work being perfectly zero-sum with your closest competitor? Not at all reasonable.

Some of that extra business will be taken from other companies. In fact, unless it's a duopoly or you're by far the largest player in the market, probably most of that extra value will be taken from other companies.