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How Elizabeth Warren Took Down the CEO of Wells Fargo, and Why It Matters

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Re: How Elizabeth Warren Took Down the CEO of Wells Fargo, and Why It Matters

#51
post #21

I absolutely love Senator Warren. That being said, the notion that the stock price of Wells Fargo could be significantly impacted by this scheme (which is central to Ms. Warren's argument) is not well founded. Wells Fargo makes 86 billion in revenue per year. Even if 10 million accounts were made and each made a thousand dollars -- (incredibly generous) ... over the course of 5 years this accounts for 1 billion in re…

The point wasn't for these fake accounts to generate revenue. The bank executives knew that Wall Street used the number of new accounts opened as an indicator in their valuation of the stock. They explicitly reported new accounts in their quarterly results. Knowing this the executives pursued policies to boost account numbers reasoning that it would boost the stock price by boosting expectations even though it wouldn…

This is the central point I am making: there is little evidence that: 1) The stock price was inflated. This can be seen by the fact that the valuation of WF is relatively stable both prior to and after this debacle. (outside of the short term volatility due to the scandal). If what you are saying is true then we would have expected the market to dump WF shares at the "inflated" price. This did not happen

2) That the intention of the executives was to increase the stock price by leveraging the fake accounts rather than to increase real accounts whilst policing an incentive scheme that was harsh to the point that it resulted in bad behavior by low level workers.

My point is that the revenue impact from the addition of fraudulent accounts is so negligible that to equate it to "fraud" is misleading.

Any incentive scheme has cheaters, abusers and fraudsters. That is the norm in an organization that employees thousands of unskilled workers.

This is a case of an incentive scheme that was pushed too hard despite market realities -- to the point where people felt compelled to lie to keep their jobs (which was morally wrong on their part -- regardless of "how tough it is to find work" or "needing to put bread on the table"). Those people were fired. In order to understand if this was fraud or not we need to look at whether or not these incentive schemes generated an increase in LEGITIMATE accounts being created.

If this was the case then the incentive scheme worked and policing needed to be increased or modifications needed to be made to the management to prevent bad behavior.

If this was not the case -- then we have to ask why the management chose to push harsh incentive schemes knowing that it only created fraudulent accounts.

The type of black and white thinking that is going on in this thread (and elsewhere) is emotionally driven due to the size of Stumpf's paycheck. Most people are just not used to seeing $100mm dollars.

I would be very skeptical of articles like the one linked to above. Anyone who has lead a large organization that contains people that couldn't compete or got fired and angry has heard these types of gripes... they are a dime a dozen. My point is that Stumpf paid for his sins and I don't think we need to roast him further. I think Warren's appraisal of the situation is excessive.

Re: How Elizabeth Warren Took Down the CEO of Wells Fargo, and Why It Matters

#52
post #37

What do the libertarians say about this theft? While I understand the idea of the free market, I don't see how that would have protected the consumer in this case. The CEO has millions of times the power of the average consumer, and can harness thousands of people to his agenda. The consumer is left to either (a) pay the "idiot" tax of being stupid enough to sign up for a thieving bank, or (b) rely on the government…

In a "perfect free market", customers have access to all of the information required to make the decision, and can make an informed choice on the products and services they buy and sell based on their circumstances.

That wasn't the case in this situation. Customers didn't have all of the information, and as a result, were taken advantage of.

In regards to the specific fraud component (signing up customers to services they didn't ask for), I think you've just seen the consequences of what happens. Share price tanks, CEO is forced to leave. Again, this comes down to access to information; when it became clear Wells Fargo were committing fraud, the market moved against it due to a reduction in good will/image/reputation. As a result of this information becoming public, fewer customers are likely to sign up to Wells Fargo, meaning the expected profits from this company are likely to be lower than expected previously.

The government has a role to keep information available, so society can make a decision about what it deems acceptable corporate practice.

Re: How Elizabeth Warren Took Down the CEO of Wells Fargo, and Why It Matters

#53
post #37

What do the libertarians say about this theft? While I understand the idea of the free market, I don't see how that would have protected the consumer in this case. The CEO has millions of times the power of the average consumer, and can harness thousands of people to his agenda. The consumer is left to either (a) pay the "idiot" tax of being stupid enough to sign up for a thieving bank, or (b) rely on the government…

In a "perfect free market", customers have access to all of the information required to make the decision, and can make an informed choice on the products and services they buy and sell based on their circumstances. That wasn't the case in this situation. Customers didn't have all of the information, and as a result, were taken advantage of. In regards to the specific fraud component (signing up customers to services…

Of course, basically all economic theory is predicated on the assumption that information is basically free and widely available. In reality, this is simply not the case - information is either not free, or it is time-consuming to acquire (and therefore not free in another sense). As soon as one understands this a lot of free market ideology stops making sense and things like Consumer Production Bureaus start to sound like an intelligent way of managing risk insurance for the general population.

Re: How Elizabeth Warren Took Down the CEO of Wells Fargo, and Why It Matters

#54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then maybe we should ditch the wheels and use Hammers of Justice instead? The ceo PERSONALLY made more money during the scam than entire bank was fined. really epic stuff here, I mean, Really, way to dish out the pain!

The bank was also fined many times more than it made from the scam.

i mean, i guess if you dont factor in 100% stock price increase they didn't make that much money.

Re: How Elizabeth Warren Took Down the CEO of Wells Fargo, and Why It Matters

#55
post #37

What do the libertarians say about this theft? While I understand the idea of the free market, I don't see how that would have protected the consumer in this case. The CEO has millions of times the power of the average consumer, and can harness thousands of people to his agenda. The consumer is left to either (a) pay the "idiot" tax of being stupid enough to sign up for a thieving bank, or (b) rely on the government…

I have libertarian tendencies, but I don't think the free market is the answer to all our woes.

Free markets are for efficiency, laws are safety.

Re: How Elizabeth Warren Took Down the CEO of Wells Fargo, and Why It Matters

#56
post #9

I appreciate that Warren didn't let Stumpf talk his way out of taking any responsibility for the actions of his employees and made a clear argument as to why he should be held accountable. Unfortunately, it seems the primary reason he resigned was because the public outrage was loud enough. It seems that until CEOs are personally held accountable via fines or prison (as Warren suggests) we won't see a very big change…

Anyone who has worked in a company of any size knows it'd be down near impossible to know the inner working at all levels of the organization. So, yes, the guy is accountable and needs to lose his job. But the idea that he should go to prison for something like this is ludicrous.

Why not? The outcome was entirely predictable, and there is no way that a CEO of one of the country's largest banks doesn't understand the basic concept of economic incentives shaping people's behavior.

Nothing personal because I'm sure you didn't intend to make things worse for everyone, but your attitude is exactly what's wrong with the US and with capitalism in general - the notion that once an organization is sufficiently large that it becomes hard to trace a chain of liability, then the liability must somehow evaporate and can't be assigned to any individual parties, but must be severally absorbed by the shareholders. Oh, but the shareholders think they don't bear any moral responsibility because it's an agency problem, they only vote on the candidates that the Board of Directors offer them for senior offices. Oh, but the board of directors can't be responsible because they're not involved in the day-to-day running of the bank...and so on.

If corporate status is no more than a means by which to redistribute legal liability so thinly that none of it can accrue to any one individual, then the notion of corporate personhood is broken. I would remind you that the whole reason personhood exists in the first place is to make some sort of accountability possible, otherwise it would be virtually impossible to sue any officers of a company for lack of knowing who engineered a given policy that might form the basis of a legal complaint.

Re: How Elizabeth Warren Took Down the CEO of Wells Fargo, and Why It Matters

#57
post #9

I appreciate that Warren didn't let Stumpf talk his way out of taking any responsibility for the actions of his employees and made a clear argument as to why he should be held accountable. Unfortunately, it seems the primary reason he resigned was because the public outrage was loud enough. It seems that until CEOs are personally held accountable via fines or prison (as Warren suggests) we won't see a very big change…

Anyone who has worked in a company of any size knows it'd be down near impossible to know the inner working at all levels of the organization. So, yes, the guy is accountable and needs to lose his job. But the idea that he should go to prison for something like this is ludicrous.

If you can show knowledge of the illegal activity then why should prison be off the table?

I suppose just making the fines high enough to actually punish the company should be enough.

Re: How Elizabeth Warren Took Down the CEO of Wells Fargo, and Why It Matters

#58
post #46
post #37

What do the libertarians say about this theft? While I understand the idea of the free market, I don't see how that would have protected the consumer in this case. The CEO has millions of times the power of the average consumer, and can harness thousands of people to his agenda. The consumer is left to either (a) pay the "idiot" tax of being stupid enough to sign up for a thieving bank, or (b) rely on the government…

If you live in the West you live in a free market right now. Asking the "libertarians" what they would do about this incident in the "free market" is a deceptive thing to say. Not only does it ignore the fact that we live in a free market, it unjustly pins the failings of the system we live in on a philosophy which has a wide array of different nuances and subgroups. Libertarians range from anarcho-capitalists, to so…

>If you live in the West you live in a free market right now.

> nobody (in) civilization has really ever lived under what is technically a free market.

So, we do or we don't?

Re: How Elizabeth Warren Took Down the CEO of Wells Fargo, and Why It Matters

#59
post #4

This is good. Articles like this however always seem to recall the subprime mortgage crisis, when "too big to fail" sheltered CEOs and banks from much fallout. I would like to express to Sen Warren, and others, that a more fragmented & transparent financial system is important-- but much less than the broadband & tech sector. Google has 1.6B[0] users of a total of 3.8[1] internet users. too big to fail is 42% of the…

The difference in your comparison though is the internet still works if Google goes under. If a TBTF bank goes under [1] the financial system can halt/implode. Which is the main argument to break up the banks to a level where there isn't total-system fragility. [1] due to their own reckless behavior / Capitalism on the upside, Socialism on the downside.

Well, I am going to call BS as if we had regulation regarding consolidation of banks, then we would have a larger eco-system in the financial areas: [0]

Here is my problem with banking, if naive, please inform me: Banking should be treated like any other base infrastructure. Financial infrastructure is critical. It is not ok for the foundation of modern commerce and civilization to be controlled by so few. We need to revamp our financial situation. period.

http://www.motherjones.com/files/images/big-bank-theory-char...

Re: How Elizabeth Warren Took Down the CEO of Wells Fargo, and Why It Matters

#60

Look I love Elizabeth Warren but this whole article is really over the top. > leaders of financial institutions are painfully aware that there are consequences They were fined lousy 280m and the CEO was allowed to resign a full 3 years after it was first reported. Really, REEAAALLLY painful stuff there.

The pain is only in the risk to their pocketbook. Not any other actual risk...

most of us are entrepreneurs,so we should all appreciate the value of the corporate vail.

But this is criminal identity theft. all of us would expect real consequences for that kind of activity.

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