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Drugs in Portugal: Did Decriminalization Work?

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Re: Drugs in Portugal: Did Decriminalization Work?

#51

Post by lmkg »

njharman wrote: post #36

Is anyone else perplexed that the success metric for decriminalization is reduced drug use? I'd think reduced crime (esp organized), reduced prison populations, savings in prosecuting housing drug non-criminals, job increases from local production/distribution, and/or tax revenue increases would all be more interesting / relevant metrics. It sounds like Portugal took the path of "it's still illegal and bad, we're jus…

No, that's decriminalization. Leaving the laws on the books but not enforcing them is decriminalization. Taking the laws off the books is legalization. The societal view of whether it's bad or not can't be legislated directly, but it could change as use patterns shift over the years.

Re: Drugs in Portugal: Did Decriminalization Work?

#52

Post by lotharbot »

GiraffeNecktie wrote: post #33
epochwolf wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because something is old doesn't mean it isn't relevant or interesting.

Just because it was relevant and interesting a year ago - or ten years ago - doesn't mean you should be posting and reposting and reposting it on a "news" site. Maybe there should be a golden oldies site where people can post all the "but gee it's new to me" stuff.

old.ycombinator.com?

;)

Re: Drugs in Portugal: Did Decriminalization Work?

#53

Post by chbarts »

protomyth wrote: post #25
mey wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here is my understanding on why decriminalization of drugs is beneficial. First, legitimate competition from suppliers would drive down costs, forcing high risk/high reward illegal operations from other countries out of the market. How can a Mexican drug cartel compete against grand-ma and her backyard? Secondly, what is the violent side of drug activitey? Again my understanding is that it's mostly revolved around pr…

Some of the current drugs out there need to stay illegal. Not because they get you high, but because they are toxic. I do believe, if some form of decriminalization happens, we really need to up the penalty for crimes committed while under the influence. Maybe assume premeditation. I should point out I believe the same thing about alcohol. Killing someone while drunk should be considered premeditated.

> Killing someone while drunk should be considered premeditated.

I agree.

> Some of the current drugs out there need to stay illegal. Not because they get you high, but because they are toxic.

OK, I'll replace 'toxic' with 'potentially more addictive and dangerous than weed, alcohol, and nicotine' (Tobacco is damned addictive but it doesn't seem to cause antisocial behaviors.), because otherwise what you said makes no damned sense.

Go back to the late 1800s: People could buy cocaine and opium over-the-counter at drugstores. Laudanum (also called tincture of opium), a common patent medicine, was made from 10% opium and 1% morphine dissolved in alcohol. This, too, was available over-the-counter. America was prosperous, growing, and certainly not universally addicted to drugs.

So, why do you think going back to that regime would be dangerous? What evidence do you have that contradicts my historical analysis?

Re: Drugs in Portugal: Did Decriminalization Work?

#54

Post by Qz »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #41
jbooth wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a good way to look at it is that it's not so much about right and wrong or about who's a victim but about average outcomes. The average outcome of prosecuting a drug user or prostitute is you spent a bunch of government resources processing, trying and incarcerating the person in order to take someone off the streets who's not actually particularly dangerous. So, why do it? Drug dealers on the other hand freq…

I don't think you really believe that logic. Hypothetically, suppose it turns out that black drug dealers are far more likely than white drug dealers to be violent criminals [1]. Would you then favor prosecuting drug crimes committed by blacks, but not by whites? Depending on what the numbers work out to be, you will get the same statistical "bang for buck" that you would prosecuting drug sellers but not sex sellers.…

...take Weeds as the average white drug dealer...

Seriously? I mean I love that show but taking as Nancy Botwin as the average white drug dealer is crazy talk.

Re: Drugs in Portugal: Did Decriminalization Work?

#55

Post by Qz »

chbarts wrote: post #47
Qz wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, legitimate competition from suppliers would drive down costs, forcing high risk/high reward illegal operations from other countries out of the market. How can a Mexican drug cartel compete against grand-ma and her backyard? Secondly, what is the violent side of drug activitey? Again my understanding is that it's mostly revolved around protecting/hiding illegal production, and moving the drugs to a dealer. If y…

> Drug violence is rarely about cartels vs cops -- more often it's cartels vs cartels and dealers vs dealers. Precisely the point: If the cartels come to intimidate grandma, she calls the police, because her operation is legal and the intimidation is not. The police, because her operation is legal, then go after the cartel and shut them down. Additionally, contract laws and theft/burglary laws and so on work in grand…

The police...then go after the cartel and shut them down.

Hah, if it were that easy we wouldn't still be in this 'War on Drugs'.

Re: Drugs in Portugal: Did Decriminalization Work?

#56

Post by danh »

iaskwhy wrote: post #13

I'm from Portugal. There's something important missing from the article which might be useful to explain why there were so many people using drugs in Portugal. Before 1975, the country was under a dictatorship and drug use was obviously low. Then there was a revolution and people were free to the outside world's culture. On the years following the revolution, young adults were pretty much amazed by all the things you…

It seems like all Western (or westernized) countries have to endure an era of "sex & drugs & rock & roll".

It's like puberty for countries.

Re: Drugs in Portugal: Did Decriminalization Work?

#57

Post by goatforce5 »

mey wrote: post #35
protomyth wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some of the current drugs out there need to stay illegal. Not because they get you high, but because they are toxic. I do believe, if some form of decriminalization happens, we really need to up the penalty for crimes committed while under the influence. Maybe assume premeditation. I should point out I believe the same thing about alcohol. Killing someone while drunk should be considered premeditated.

A lot of things people ingest are toxic, the trick I feel is making that well known and public knowledge, not necessarily illegal. For example, the surgeon generals warning on the pack of a cigarette, or the chemical warnings on a bottle of bleach, I feel are a better way to approach the problem. Part of my attitude comes from growing up in New Hampshire. For example, if you are a consenting adult, and you are only h…

If someone is in a traffic accident and ends up with severe physical or mental disabilities because they didn't take basic safety precautions (wearing a helmet or seatbelt), costs are incurred by the rest of society.

Re: Drugs in Portugal: Did Decriminalization Work?

#58

Post by yummyfajitas »

Qz wrote: post #54
yummyfajitas wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think you really believe that logic. Hypothetically, suppose it turns out that black drug dealers are far more likely than white drug dealers to be violent criminals [1]. Would you then favor prosecuting drug crimes committed by blacks, but not by whites? Depending on what the numbers work out to be, you will get the same statistical "bang for buck" that you would prosecuting drug sellers but not sex sellers.…

...take Weeds as the average white drug dealer... Seriously? I mean I love that show but taking as Nancy Botwin as the average white drug dealer is crazy talk.

Lets give this HYPOTHETICAL a TV face: take Weeds as the average white drug dealer...

Re: Drugs in Portugal: Did Decriminalization Work?

#59

Post by Qz »

protomyth wrote: post #25
mey wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here is my understanding on why decriminalization of drugs is beneficial. First, legitimate competition from suppliers would drive down costs, forcing high risk/high reward illegal operations from other countries out of the market. How can a Mexican drug cartel compete against grand-ma and her backyard? Secondly, what is the violent side of drug activitey? Again my understanding is that it's mostly revolved around pr…

Some of the current drugs out there need to stay illegal. Not because they get you high, but because they are toxic. I do believe, if some form of decriminalization happens, we really need to up the penalty for crimes committed while under the influence. Maybe assume premeditation. I should point out I believe the same thing about alcohol. Killing someone while drunk should be considered premeditated.

Killing someone while drunk should be considered premeditated.

This is crazy talk. In some cases it might be true, but the idea of applying such a broad judgment on an entire class of crimes would be a huge injustice.

Severity of punishment is not a good way to reduce the incidence of crime. Do you think someone who's judgment is so impaired that they're ready to drive while drunk is really going to stop and think, hey this is extra illegal, maybe I shouldn't do it? They're already putting their own lives in severe danger, so I doubt it.

The solution is better education, not increased punishment.

Re: Drugs in Portugal: Did Decriminalization Work?

#60

Post by miguelpais »

I think the system is being overrated both in the article and in your comments. I'm from Portugal (but that doesn't mean I'm an authority on the reality of my country, as I haven't been involved in this kind of situations and didn't experience the system working) but I just think the whole thing just comes down to "you're not punished for having it".

But that doesn't mean that there exist government production sites or distribution stores. So there isn't any advantage for the goverment such as incoming tax money from the drugs or increse in job positions.

Also there is no mistaken belief that the goverment supports the drugs perceived by the youth because actually all the system does is not arresting you, the goverment doesn't provide the availability of drugs.

If the system ends up helping the addicted individuals or not, that is something that I don't know. Though it seems obvious that arresting someone is not the wisest first step for treatment, I end up figuring how does the system reaches the addicts then (I don't think getting help by themselves is something they would do without a great external help).

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