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Neglected Food Bubbles: The Espresso Coffee Foam

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Re: Neglected Food Bubbles: The Espresso Coffee Foam

#51

Post by BurningFrog »

luckydata wrote: post #23
HoppedUpMenace wrote: post #20

My first machine to make espresso was a espresso/drip coffee combo. Not knowing any better, I was merely pulling strong coffee and not espresso shots. Then I got a stand alone espresso machine, much closer to the real deal but still a far cry from what a coffee roaster like Temple Coffee could make in their store. Finally, invested in a Breville BES870XL and after many trials and errors, my espresso shots are fairly…

Ritual's coffee is terrible: acidic, unpleasant to the palate and lacking in aroma. I hope your coffee is better than theirs. - disclosure: I'm Italian and I believe espresso in San Francisco sucks almost universally

Could it be that taste differs in different parts of the world?

Just trying to have everyone get along and get to be right.

Re: Neglected Food Bubbles: The Espresso Coffee Foam

#52

Post by lytfyre »

gwynplaine wrote: post #36
lytfyre wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are different styles of espresso, with roasters and barista optimizing for very different tastes - the Italian/Mediterranean style is one, the "third wave" style that's more prevalent on the North American west coast and Australia (Seattle/Portland/Melbourne/London UK) is another, and Scandinavian/Northern European being a third. Then there's the many people who go to a coffee shop for a drink with a ton of syr…

Completely agree, Italian espresso was considered great decades ago, but standards have risen faster elsewhere since then. Italy still makes the best espresso _machines_ such as Simonelli. My experience of coffee there is coffee roasted so dark as to be considered burnt. See the World Barista Championship winners, not a single Italian yet, unfortunately. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Barista_Championship

> Italy still makes the best espresso _machines_ such as Simonelli

Even that I think they're losing ground on - Slayer or Synesso out of Seattle, or Mod Bar out of Indiana are pretty great, certainly right up there with any Simonelli or La Marzoco.

For consumer level espresso machines, I think Breville (Australian) has been blowing away just about everything under 2k$. It's been interesting to watch them bring more modern control tech into the cheap market.

Re: Neglected Food Bubbles: The Espresso Coffee Foam

#53

Post by fatdog »

Hipster coffee and Italian coffee are very different. The former is characterized by "fruit" flavors, which a lot of people taste as just acidic, where Italian coffees are more base and tannic, owing (I think) to higher levels of the cheaper arabica bean in their blends.

As someone whose drink is a "ristretto" (which is mostly the crema) the espresso in a given little italy vs. something served by someone under the age of 50 is very different. The closest thing I could find to a standard Italian coffee in SF was at Mara's Italian Pastries in north beach.

Could a hipster do it? Sure. Would I ever line up or wait for their explanation to find out? No.

Re: Neglected Food Bubbles: The Espresso Coffee Foam

#54

Post by 205guy »

mistersquid wrote: post #33
luckydata wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ritual's coffee is terrible: acidic, unpleasant to the palate and lacking in aroma. I hope your coffee is better than theirs. - disclosure: I'm Italian and I believe espresso in San Francisco sucks almost universally

While I agree with your assessment of Ritual's coffee, with all due respect, your being Italian alone does not establish your competence in judging espresso. I do understand espresso originates from Italy. I'm just allowing for the possibility that some Italians are poor judges of espresso and some non-Italians are excellent judges of same. To my taste as a non-Italian, Blue Bottle espresso is delicious. The baristas…

You're equivocating. A random person knows his culture in a general way and is competent to make comparisons. The op was essentially saying his overall observation of espresso in the US does not overlap with his experience in Italy.

Having lived in Europe myself, I also know this to be true. Further, that it happens in many food categories gives credence to the espresso observation: cheese, wine, bread, etc. It goes both ways: hamburgers, Mexican food, Japanese food, etc, in Europe are not the same as you find in the US, Mexico, and Japan. It's not so much a critique as an observation about how hard it is to replicate cultural foods.

But I do have to add that people in the US have this attitude that they can borrow and replicate a cultural food, and then they hype it and get smug about--without realizing they haven't captured the essence of the original. How hard can it be to operate an espresso machine after all? Well, very hard if you include selecting and blending beans from around the world, roasting them right, grinding them just so, and dosing and tamping it right.

Re: Neglected Food Bubbles: The Espresso Coffee Foam

#55

Post by lobster_johnson »

hammock wrote: post #16
wildmusings wrote: post #4

You can actually simulate this at home with just a moka pot; no need for a fancy ultra-expensive espresso machine. Pour just a tiny amount of the espresso into a cup with sugar and beat it really hard with a spoon. Then pour the rest of the coffee into the same container. Voila, crema, or at least something that looks and feels like crema. I think this is a Cuban-American (maybe originally Cuban) innovation and growi…

Espresso machines need not be fancy or ultra-expensive. That's a terrible myth. The best one I've found (in terms of quality espresso and reliability) is the Delonghi basic model and costs $99.[1] The Italian Americans I know also use this model, despite having tried others. [1] https://www.amazon.com/DeLonghi-EC155-Espresso-Cappuccino-Ma...

Those cheap plastic coffee machines actually are pretty poor, and tend to break fast -- planned obsolescence at its finest. I recommend going a step up and buying something like a Rancilio Silva [1]. All metal, has replaceable, serviceable parts, has a good community of tweakers who document mods for things like temperature control, lasts practically for ever.

[1] https://www.amazon.com/Rancilio-Espresso-Machine-Stainless-1...

Re: Neglected Food Bubbles: The Espresso Coffee Foam

#56

Post by horshod »

205guy wrote: post #54
mistersquid wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I agree with your assessment of Ritual's coffee, with all due respect, your being Italian alone does not establish your competence in judging espresso. I do understand espresso originates from Italy. I'm just allowing for the possibility that some Italians are poor judges of espresso and some non-Italians are excellent judges of same. To my taste as a non-Italian, Blue Bottle espresso is delicious. The baristas…

You're equivocating. A random person knows his culture in a general way and is competent to make comparisons. The op was essentially saying his overall observation of espresso in the US does not overlap with his experience in Italy. Having lived in Europe myself, I also know this to be true. Further, that it happens in many food categories gives credence to the espresso observation: cheese, wine, bread, etc. It goes…

I am from India, living in the US and I have seen tons of Indian snobs saying the Indian food in the US is just not good enough. I just can't agree. I can imagine that the probability of finding good espresso may be much higher in Italy - maybe every corner cafe makes only the best coffee. But the idea that good espresso cannot be found anywhere in the US (or SFO), which is home to many Europeans, just seems a bit of an exaggeration.

Re: Neglected Food Bubbles: The Espresso Coffee Foam

#57

Post by Retric »

205guy wrote: post #54
mistersquid wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I agree with your assessment of Ritual's coffee, with all due respect, your being Italian alone does not establish your competence in judging espresso. I do understand espresso originates from Italy. I'm just allowing for the possibility that some Italians are poor judges of espresso and some non-Italians are excellent judges of same. To my taste as a non-Italian, Blue Bottle espresso is delicious. The baristas…

You're equivocating. A random person knows his culture in a general way and is competent to make comparisons. The op was essentially saying his overall observation of espresso in the US does not overlap with his experience in Italy. Having lived in Europe myself, I also know this to be true. Further, that it happens in many food categories gives credence to the espresso observation: cheese, wine, bread, etc. It goes…

It's not a difficult process, the problem is there is little incentive to get to make it 'correctly'. Good pizza for example costs significantly more to make and you can only afford to serve it if you customers are willing to pay for it.

PS: Chocolate seems to be the worst offender, IMO. Good chocolate is pricy and has a poor shelf life, but tastes so much better than even expencive chocolate you can find in the US. Even when you can find a good brand companies just tend to make worse product over time, because that's how you maximize profit.

Re: Neglected Food Bubbles: The Espresso Coffee Foam

#58

Post by jhoechtl »

I have been to Florida over the season 2015->2106. It was practically impossible to get anything palatable with at least a minuscule similarity to what we call a coffee in Austria. Austrian coffee culture is close to Italian. Starbucks has a hard time there as well. Why spend loadsvof money on a second class mug when you get much better a lower price plus culture for free?

Re: Neglected Food Bubbles: The Espresso Coffee Foam

#59

Post by nickbauman »

jazzyk wrote: post #12
nickbauman wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The coffeeshop in my building (Spyhouse on 945 Broadway) just won #1 roaster in the US award. It takes 3 months for an employee to certify as a barista. The coffee they make is the best tasting espresso I've ever had in my life. Clearly they know what they're doing. The coffeeshop down the street has a similar setup, but it's not even 80% as good. I'm ruined.

For me, the only espresso which comes close to the Italian original (I visit southern Europe every year) is served at Eataly (the Flatiron location in Manhattan). I've tried many smaller coffeshops in Manhattan and Boston - often highly rated on Yelp - but they are not even close. Always a bit burnt or sour - a well done espresso is neither.

That just blew my mind. My company had it's main office in the same building as Eataly as recently as 6 months ago. I've never been inside Eataly, kept meaning to! Grrr...

Re: Neglected Food Bubbles: The Espresso Coffee Foam

#60

Post by nickbauman »

wrigby wrote: post #14
nickbauman wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The coffeeshop in my building (Spyhouse on 945 Broadway) just won #1 roaster in the US award. It takes 3 months for an employee to certify as a barista. The coffee they make is the best tasting espresso I've ever had in my life. Clearly they know what they're doing. The coffeeshop down the street has a similar setup, but it's not even 80% as good. I'm ruined.

Just for the benefit of those looking for great coffee shops, you're speaking of Spyhouse in Minneapolis[1], right? 1: https://foursquare.com/v/spyhouse-coffee/52408489498e959bae4...

Correct.
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