Best Writing Advice for Engineers I've Ever Seen. • Hacker News Board

Re: Best Writing Advice for Engineers I've Ever Seen.

#51

Post by cynicalkane » Tue, Apr 06, 2010, 4:58 PM UTC

heyitsnick wrote: post #32

nollidge wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Counterpoint: http://chronicle.com/article/50-Years-of-Stupid-Grammar/2549...

Pullum on Language Log today: http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=2235

Maybe he's "right" in some sense, but I can't stand this guy. That level of anger and hate against Strunk and White seems strange and unwarranted. I think people shouldn't preach about style until they can write something that's not unpleasant to read.

Contrast this to White himself, who is quite enjoyable.

Re: Best Writing Advice for Engineers I've Ever Seen.

#52

Post by kalid » Tue, Apr 06, 2010, 5:07 PM UTC

Mc_Big_G wrote: post #2

aka "How to write a high school essay."

Actually I find it quite different from high-school essays.

In the "5 paragraph essay" you have 3 ideas, in the middle, and you summarize them in the intro and re-summarize in the conclusion. This advocates the journalism focus of getting your big idea out early, and expanding if needed. Most high school essays wouldn't teach you much reading just the title + abstract (first paragraph).

Re: Best Writing Advice for Engineers I've Ever Seen.

#53

Post by loumf » Tue, Apr 06, 2010, 5:16 PM UTC

nollidge wrote: post #5

chasingsparks wrote: post #3

http://www.amazon.com/Elements-Style-Fourth-William-Strunk/d...

Counterpoint: http://chronicle.com/article/50-Years-of-Stupid-Grammar/2549...

To me the important part of "Strunk and White" is the White part -- that is, the part that deals with style. Of course you should use good grammar or something close. The important thing isn't following grammar rules, but in expressing yourself well. There are a lot of bad grammatically correct sentences.

Re: Best Writing Advice for Engineers I've Ever Seen.

#54

Post by Estragon » Tue, Apr 06, 2010, 5:37 PM UTC

jgrahamc wrote: post #8

When I was working on my book O'Reilly sent me a copy of "On Writing Well" by William Zinsser ( http://www.amazon.com/Writing-Well-Classic-Guide-Nonfiction/... ). I read the entire book and I thought it was well worth it. One of his best pieces of advice is to end each paragraph leading the reader to the next one; the reader should want to know more. It's slightly amusing that the first sentence of the linked article…

Better still is Style: Lessons in Clarity and Grace. Writing with Power is also good, but a bit heavy on the wishful thinking in places.

Re: Best Writing Advice for Engineers I've Ever Seen.

#55

Post by chasingsparks » Tue, Apr 06, 2010, 5:56 PM UTC

Good writing comes from practice. You can learn guidelines, but they are just that -- guidelines. (I posted Skunk and White below as something I used for training wheels a long time ago.) I think programmers typically start out writing stylistically worse than non-programmers because they are used to both tools that supervise syntax and semantics that are easily testable (i.e. does this work.)

Expressing ideas in written word is far less rigid. Happily, readers are capable of parsing near non-sense. The can lex smyobls form gibebrsih and construct meaning from ambiguity. Unfortunately, readers are under no obligation to read what you have written. Whether you are trying to inform, influence, or entertain, you first have to engage. Programmers -- and engineers -- forget this lesson easily (if they ever knew it to begin with.)

Re: Best Writing Advice for Engineers I've Ever Seen.

#56

Post by jpwagner » Tue, Apr 06, 2010, 6:13 PM UTC

cynicalkane wrote: post #51

heyitsnick wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pullum on Language Log today: http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=2235

Maybe he's "right" in some sense, but I can't stand this guy. That level of anger and hate against Strunk and White seems strange and unwarranted. I think people shouldn't preach about style until they can write something that's not unpleasant to read. Contrast this to White himself, who is quite enjoyable.

I think he's correctly assumed that this will get him more readers.

Re: Best Writing Advice for Engineers I've Ever Seen.

#57

Post by bradbeattie » Tue, Apr 06, 2010, 6:59 PM UTC

davidw wrote: post #41

cschneid wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Literature == art Journalism == engineering (both of the written word). Complaining that literature is a waste of time is like saying I can't paint my house with oil paints and a tiny brush. Technically true, but you're really missing the point.

Art is a fairly subjective thing, and I found literature as presented in high school to be a complete waste of time . And no, I'm not missing the point. Looking back, it really did not have any redeeming value for me. That's the way my brain is wired, and I won't be ashamed of it just because "society" thinks literature is great. I don't, and I'll say so if I please without 'missing the point'. On the other hand, I l…

A large part of primary and secondary education is exposing you to different vocations, at least in part. Taking a course and recognizing that it's not for you is an invaluable experience, especially at such a young age. Think of it as the shotgun approach: Try a little of each to assess your desire and aptitude.

Re: Best Writing Advice for Engineers I've Ever Seen.

#58

Post by davidw » Tue, Apr 06, 2010, 7:52 PM UTC

bradbeattie wrote: post #57

davidw wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Art is a fairly subjective thing, and I found literature as presented in high school to be a complete waste of time . And no, I'm not missing the point. Looking back, it really did not have any redeeming value for me. That's the way my brain is wired, and I won't be ashamed of it just because "society" thinks literature is great. I don't, and I'll say so if I please without 'missing the point'. On the other hand, I l…

A large part of primary and secondary education is exposing you to different vocations, at least in part. Taking a course and recognizing that it's not for you is an invaluable experience, especially at such a young age. Think of it as the shotgun approach: Try a little of each to assess your desire and aptitude.

Yes, that's certainly fair and sensible. The problem is that lit is one of those things that you had to take every year where I went, so the only respite from it was a year of journalism.

Re: Best Writing Advice for Engineers I've Ever Seen.

#59

Post by sketerpot » Tue, Apr 06, 2010, 8:05 PM UTC

moron4hire wrote: post #28

gamache wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the basic advice offered in the article is solid. It's not in the most aesthetically pleasing style, but what are you gonna do. I guess I just don't hate minor sentences as much as you do.

Yes, it's solid advice, but it is basic. If we're talking about "engineers", that probably means they have completed a college degree at some point. If an engineer completed a degree and didn't take a technical writing course that drilled these concepts into their heads, then I question the quality of such an engineer's education.

I think you underestimate the ability of some people to pass classes without learning anything. I met an engineering student who had somehow passed a tough, high-quality technical writing class and yet could not write a coherent sentence, let alone a useful paragraph. I suspect that he cheated his ass off in most of his classes.

Re: Best Writing Advice for Engineers I've Ever Seen.

#60

Post by Qz » Tue, Apr 06, 2010, 9:03 PM UTC

davidw wrote: post #46

tsally wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Literature isn't about writing anymore than Computer Science is about programming. Part of your bad experience seems to stem from you not realizing this. The CS equivalent is assuming you're going to learn how to program in Theory of Computation. The other part of your bad experience comes from the fact that your instructor was a poor educator. Grading solely based on the instructor's interpretation of the work is th…

I got a lot more out of journalism because it was about how to effectively communicate something to other people, which is an extremely valuable skill. "Learning" to "analyze" (i.e. parrot something the teacher told us. And as far as I can tell he never consulted the author of the work to verify the correctness of his assertions) the symbolism in Ionesco's plays is to me, worthless. > It's difficult to find a compete…

"...but I found the lit ones to be particularly mediocre"

That's a gross generalization. You're basing that statement on your personal experience with many a handful of 'lit' teachers, out of the thousands of lit teachers, and trying to make a generalized statement about all of them? Please.

Maybe the ones you had were mediocre, but just leave it at that.