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Optimism

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Re: Optimism

#51
Optimism is just one side of the story.

A modern and experimentally grounded system of "emotional styles" is provided by neuro-scientist Richard J. Davidson, in his book "The emotional life of your brain".

A bit more nuanced than the "Big Five", he maps emotional traits along six axes: resilience, outlook, social intuition, self-awareness, sensitivity to context and attention.

Optimism would be "outlook" here, which is interesting because it's a different thing than resilience. Being optimistic isn't the opposite of being pessimistic, it's two different skills.

There are neurological explanations for each of the traits and there are exercises given to move your mind along each axis.

Re: Optimism

#52
post #34

The thing we tend to overlook about our inner dialog is that we actually have very little control over our thoughts. You know you have a problem when they become suicidal, because healthy minds simply do not have them. But even healthy minds will be pessimistic or optimistic from day to day. The author suggests the explanations we think of dictate our mood, which is true, but also our mood already dictates those thou…

> The thing we tend to overlook about our inner dialog is that we actually have very little control over our thoughts. You know you have a problem when they become suicidal, because healthy minds simply do not have them.

Tell me about it. I've had suicidal thoughts pop up in my mind, unbidden, for over a decade now. From time to time, at LEAST once a week, I'll just start visualizing putting a gun to my head and pulling the trigger. Or jumping in front of the train. Or bashing my head in with a rock. All quite vivid.

And I can't just turn it off. I don't tell a lot of people about it because it frightens them. They've never experienced it before, so they don't understand that having the thoughts doesn't mean that I want to kill myself or will attempt to do so. So mostly on my own, I've been working for years to reshape my internal landscape and to revise the story that I'm telling myself. It's slow going. I've practically become a functional psychologist through thousands of hours of highly motivated research. And I'm in therapy, too, which is a new development. I realized I had reached a plateau where my own solitary efforts had stalled. I wasn't going anywhere.

But over the years I've seen improvements. We can't control our moment to moment thoughts, but we can, over time, change the patterns. We can change the story we tell ourselves. But it takes time. There are no shortcuts. Patience and hope, those are key.

Re: Optimism

#53
post #4

Certainly, an unbiased symmetrical appraisal should be the goal? If the premise is that the effects upon your past success are equally likely to be general or specific regardless of their sign, and any asymmetry between your appraisal of the specificity between positive and negative effects indicates bias, isn't either bias problematic? All the worst initiatives that have crashed and burned around me in my career, sm…

> Certainly, an unbiased symmetrical appraisal should be the goal?

I have not read Seligman's work, but I can see at least one way in which the asymmetry in response to positive vs. negative can be justified.

If someone is doing something positive, you want them to keep doing it--so you want it to be permanent. And you want them to internalize whatever it is that makes them do that thing, make it part of themselves--so you want it to be personal. And you want them to expand whatever that positive factor is to other domains--so you want it to be general.

If someone is doing something negative, you want them to stop doing it--so you want it to be temporary. And you want them to not make it part of themselves--so you want it to be impersonal. And you want them to keep it confined and not let it affect other domains--so you want it to be specific.

In other words, the "optimistic bias" is an asymmetric strategy to achieve an asymmetric goal--maintain positives, but change negatives.

Re: Optimism

#54

>I LIVE WITH Depression The word 'depression' is so over used by everyone from a angry teenager, a new mom or a dying old man that it doesn't hold any meaning to me at all. I now mentally equate Depression with attention seeking self-importance. I feel absolutely no sympathy for anyone 'suffering from depression' these days because I've heard it so many times.

The term may be overused, but depression unfortunately does have a specific clinical meaning. Depression is not simply being sad. In fact, people suffering from depression often describe it less as sadness and more as feeling nothing at all. One of my favorite examples are these Hyperbole and Half posts ( http://hyperboleandahalf.blogspot.com/2011/10/adventures-in-... , http://hyperboleandahalf.blogspot.com/2013/05/d…

>Depression is not simply being sad.

Thats such a strange and convoluted distinction. Even the author of the post equates depression with sadness. He equates not depressed with ' happier and more productive'/'happiness and success', which is simply being not sad.

>This isn't a perfect test

But, don't you think we need clear definition of problem before we go about finding solutions for it ? Just feels a little odd to talk about overly elaborate solutions for a poorly defined problem.

Re: Optimism

#55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you feel no sympathy for the crippled because the term is often used to describe things other than literal disability?

thats a false analogy though, is it not? the word 'depression' here is not used as a metaphor like crippled. I am not talking about depression as in 'economic depression', I am talking about depression in terms of how the author is using it.

If the author suffers from clinical depression I don't see how the analogy is false.

Re: Optimism

#56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The term may be overused, but depression unfortunately does have a specific clinical meaning. Depression is not simply being sad. In fact, people suffering from depression often describe it less as sadness and more as feeling nothing at all. One of my favorite examples are these Hyperbole and Half posts ( http://hyperboleandahalf.blogspot.com/2011/10/adventures-in-... , http://hyperboleandahalf.blogspot.com/2013/05/d…

>Depression is not simply being sad. Thats such a strange and convoluted distinction. Even the author of the post equates depression with sadness. He equates not depressed with ' happier and more productive'/'happiness and success', which is simply being not sad. >This isn't a perfect test But, don't you think we need clear definition of problem before we go about finding solutions for it ? Just feels a little odd to…

> But, don't you think we need clear definition of problem before we go about finding solutions for it ? Is that too much to ask for? Just feels a little odd to talk about overly elaborate solutions for a poorly defined problem.

Not really. In practice it's fairly common for doctors to try treatments without being sure what the cause of the symptom is. I don't think it makes sense to say "well, we're not going to try to do anything to help those with clinical depression until we understand the underlying mechanism" because in the meantime you have people who need help and are not going to get it.

Re: Optimism

#57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you feel no sympathy for the crippled because the term is often used to describe things other than literal disability?

thats a false analogy though, is it not? the word 'depression' here is not used as a metaphor like crippled. I am not talking about depression as in 'economic depression', I am talking about depression in terms of how the author is using it.

I know this is HN and all, but do we need to provide references, links, papers and medical proofs about every single statement? I dont think it would add much to the discussion.

Re: Optimism

#58

Author here. Ask Me Anything.

> Optimists explain good things as being personal, general, and permanent, and explain away bad things as being impersonal, specific, and temporary. Can't this be taken to unhealthy extremes? Sounds exactly like how narcissists think. Just look at Trump. He claims personal responsibility for his successes, but his failures are always one-time events that were other people's fault. Where should one draw the line?

> Where should one draw the line?

Engage in self reflection and be honest with yourself, something I doubt Trump does.

Re: Optimism

#59

It is often taken for granted that optimism is a positive but I don't think that is necessarily the case.

It seems as though you may be using "optimism" in a different sense than the article does.

Re: Optimism

#60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Depression is not simply being sad. Thats such a strange and convoluted distinction. Even the author of the post equates depression with sadness. He equates not depressed with ' happier and more productive'/'happiness and success', which is simply being not sad. >This isn't a perfect test But, don't you think we need clear definition of problem before we go about finding solutions for it ? Just feels a little odd to…

> But, don't you think we need clear definition of problem before we go about finding solutions for it ? Is that too much to ask for? Just feels a little odd to talk about overly elaborate solutions for a poorly defined problem. Not really. In practice it's fairly common for doctors to try treatments without being sure what the cause of the symptom is. I don't think it makes sense to say "well, we're not going to try…

>In practice it's fairly common for doctors to try treatments without being sure what the cause of the symptom is.

You mean nonchalantly prescribing anti depressants? I was put on zoloft about 1.5 years over 7 years ago and I still suffer from side effects despite being only on 'pediatric dosage'.

Never again!!

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