Motivational Incongruence and Well-Being at the Workplace • Hacker News Board

Re: Motivational Incongruence and Well-Being at the Workplace

#51

Post by shostack » Sun, Aug 14, 2016, 5:27 PM UTC

aantix wrote: post #26

a-saleh wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems weird to me that some workplace would mandate physical(?) pair-programming as a default. And I actually like pair-programming, some of my best code was written with somebody sitting besides me and we have solved some really tricky bugs like this. But we tend to do this only rarely. Most of my day is spent organizing stuff and reading emails anyway :-)

I'm pretty sure Pivotal and Carbon Five, two high end Rails consulting firms in SF require pair programming. I'm pretty sure that you can't hire Pivotal without contracting two of their engineering, strictly for pair programming. Some of my best code has been written with pair programming but I can see the flip-side. There's no day-dreaming, there's no zoning out, complete engagement all day long. It's the same menta…

Any idea how much of that is to juice margins by billing two people minimum? Surely the work is not completed twice as quickly.

Re: Motivational Incongruence and Well-Being at the Workplace

#52

Post by treehau5_ » Sun, Aug 14, 2016, 5:46 PM UTC

angersock wrote: post #39

treehau5_ wrote: post #25

Yeah I have expereined this very thing at work right now, but the great thing about being a human is you can change and adapt at the face of adversity. In my case it was either get fired/quit spend a month or two getting a new job and hear it from my wife or suck it up and be the person myorganization wants me to be -- it wasn't that hard at the end of the day because I get paid handsomly, get to sit in an air condit…

Having a wife changes the formula a lot, as does having a support structure in place.

Yeah, well to be honest my wife still struggles with understanding my depression/anxiety (but getting better) but I seeked outside therapy in combination with CBT and also a couple other self help books like Mindset and Thinking Fast and Slow to just help me be able to reflect and recognize what/where my feelings and perceptions truly are. This, plus getting back to exercising, despite how much I wanted not to helped me tremendously. You truly can overcome any situation. Fortunately for most tech workers in this country you most likely have good insurance and access to therapy. Other countries may not have formal therapy, but the other societal and familial constructs are stronger.

Re: Motivational Incongruence and Well-Being at the Workplace

#53

Post by watashiwa » Sun, Aug 14, 2016, 5:50 PM UTC

ams6110 wrote: post #2

I quit a job when I felt burnout developing. The cause? Pair programming. I just cannot that close to someone for the majority of the workday without feeling constant low-level stress and annoyance, and I can't focus and think about problems in that setting. When you have to sit in your car for 15 minutes every morning just to summon the resolve to get out and go into the office, something's wrong with your work envi…

I don't consider myself particularly extroverted or introverted, and I've personally had both bad and good experiences pair programming. I think it depends entirely who you're programming with and in what context.

My bad experience was with a large international consulting company. The consultant members colluded to extend their contract and push their own design, architecture, and tools. The time spent pair programming with them was simply a method of advancing their agenda. It was a horrible experience and I felt burnout just like you described. It was a waste of time and money for the client.

My last consulting project was the exact opposite, it was absolutely wonderful. I spent the day pair programming and it involved creative problem solving and an intellectual exchange. It was a great experience, I grew professionally, wrote better code, and can see legitimate a case that it was worth the client's money.

Re: Motivational Incongruence and Well-Being at the Workplace

#54

Post by swiftisthebest » Sun, Aug 14, 2016, 5:51 PM UTC

treehau5_ wrote: post #25

Yeah I have expereined this very thing at work right now, but the great thing about being a human is you can change and adapt at the face of adversity. In my case it was either get fired/quit spend a month or two getting a new job and hear it from my wife or suck it up and be the person myorganization wants me to be -- it wasn't that hard at the end of the day because I get paid handsomly, get to sit in an air condit…

Don't be afraid to promote bootstrapping! The masses will come around eventually.

Re: Motivational Incongruence and Well-Being at the Workplace

#55

Post by swiftisthebest » Sun, Aug 14, 2016, 5:53 PM UTC

JackFr wrote: post #35

joyeuse6701 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tolerance is largely relative I think. You could have a crank that spits out pennies so long as you crank it. Invariably we will tire of turning the crank because it's monotonous uninspiring unfulfilling work. The argument could be made that someone somewhere does not have the opportunity to so easily spin a crank for money so we ought to be grateful, but the mind's adaptability is a double edged sword. You exalt the…

Inspiring fulfilling work is a luxury not everyone can afford, and it is a conceit of the modern world that meaning and fulfillment in your life should come from your employment.

False. Everyone is free to pursue that which fulfills them and find a method of sustaining their life from their endeavors. There is no fulfilling passion in the world that cannot be monetized.

Re: Motivational Incongruence and Well-Being at the Workplace

#56

Post by crmd » Sun, Aug 14, 2016, 6:11 PM UTC

s_kilk wrote: post #31

city41 wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also left a job due to pair programming. That company pair programmed 100% of the time. It concerns me that might become a norm. I wrote a blog post on why I think that's a bad idea: http://www.mattgreer.org/articles/pair-programming-is-not-a-...

I wonder if these kinds of teams are lead by extroverts, who appreciate having a captive audience for their peopley, extroverted shenaniagns. Having a stable of people who are contractually obligated to put up with their outgoing personalities.

It's not nice to belittle individuals whose brains work differently than your own.

Re: Motivational Incongruence and Well-Being at the Workplace

#57

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Aug 14, 2016, 6:14 PM UTC

treehau5_ wrote: post #25

Yeah I have expereined this very thing at work right now, but the great thing about being a human is you can change and adapt at the face of adversity. In my case it was either get fired/quit spend a month or two getting a new job and hear it from my wife or suck it up and be the person myorganization wants me to be -- it wasn't that hard at the end of the day because I get paid handsomly, get to sit in an air condit…

[deleted]

Re: Motivational Incongruence and Well-Being at the Workplace

#58

Post by RyanZAG » Sun, Aug 14, 2016, 6:35 PM UTC

swiftisthebest wrote: post #55

JackFr wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Inspiring fulfilling work is a luxury not everyone can afford, and it is a conceit of the modern world that meaning and fulfillment in your life should come from your employment.

False. Everyone is free to pursue that which fulfills them and find a method of sustaining their life from their endeavors. There is no fulfilling passion in the world that cannot be monetized.

I agree with you, but there's a caveat: not every passion can be monetized easily. Some passions are so difficult to monetize that nobody has yet found out how to monetize them. Simply because everything can be monetized does not mean they can be monetized by everyone. So telling people to follow their passion is not a solution if their passion is beyond their capability to monetize.

Put another way: everyone is free to set up their own planet if they don't like this one, and it's undoubtedly possible with infinite knowledge and ability to set up your own planet. But it's not good advice to give someone today for obvious reasons.

Re: Motivational Incongruence and Well-Being at the Workplace

#59

Post by _lbaq » Sun, Aug 14, 2016, 6:51 PM UTC

kristianc wrote: post #6

I'm not sure how much this advice will be heeded. In a lot of places in tech, there seems to be a culture where companies are more concerned about maximizing units of work at the expense of more intangible factors. You see this in Agile, Kanban etc methods of work where personal development is completely subjugated to the needs of the project. Insofar as a guiding principle behind the work does exist, that too tends…

>In a lot of places in tech, there seems to be a culture where companies are more concerned about maximizing units of work at the expense of more intangible factors.

I agree, there is allot of focus on all sort of tooling to cram points etc out of the work force and the simple answer to that is that is the easy part, really easy part, everything is already there.

The really hard part of building a company is making sure that everyone feel part of it and not just some assembly line drone.

Re: Motivational Incongruence and Well-Being at the Workplace

#60

Post by HarryHirsch » Sun, Aug 14, 2016, 7:02 PM UTC

ape4 wrote: post #9

dasmoth wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for writing this. I particularly like the suggested desk arrangement -- although I'm not sure I can see it catching on given that pairing is often coupled with long tables in open-plan offices. Once upon a time, I thought programming was an introvert-friendly career. That seems to be changing fast.

I guess they want to get rid of the deep-thinking reflective introverts.

You ask yourself if Agile, pair programming, open plan office and all the other fads of the day may have to do with the economic environment. Back in the day, when the economy wasn't excessively financialized, a company had to develop a product and compete successfully in the market. So management did what it took and treated its developers well. But nowadays, it's all about raising yet another round of funding and selling to an investor, consequently, management subscribes to every idiotic management fad in fashion because that's what investors look out for and what helps the company to stick around for yet a year more. No product development required.