Live data from Hacker News

IBM's reputation at risk in wake of census bungle

smh.com.au

51–60 of 91 posts

Re: IBM's reputation at risk in wake of census bungle

#51

IBM's reputation is utterly nonsensical. I've worked for a company bought by IBM and for companies that used IBM's products/services and they've never been anything other than mediocre, sometimes outright bad, with costs that are astronomical. My recommendation is that if you ever think about using an IBM product, hire a developer instead. You'll pay less money for a developer than you would pay for an IBM product, a…

From personal experience, CP Optimizer beats the crap out of other constraint solvers. Its API is... well, a bit rough, but it's incredibly fast and the support is top notch.

I can't really speak for other IBM products, but I suspect they generally align with your perception here.

Re: IBM's reputation at risk in wake of census bungle

#52
post #15

A few years ago I worked on a project where my company was contracted to build a small piece of a much larger system by IBM. IBM was managing many different contractors. We needed a way to "securely" show a picture, aka not using the pre-installed image showing app. So IBM spent tens of thousands of dollars to build a new Android app that displayed a picture passed to it via an intent. I told our product guy that I c…

Presumably that kind of process rigor is necessary in massive, high-scope projects, and the fallout we see is chiefly from the inability to apply a more lightweight process for tiny projects?

This seems more like "spaghetti process".

Process meant to dissect problem to the right size for predictable execution. Right size does not translate to always the same dissection for vastly different sized problems.

For a tool as simple as the parent post describes, what IBM does is not process rigor.

Re: IBM's reputation at risk in wake of census bungle

#53

IBM's reputation is utterly nonsensical. I've worked for a company bought by IBM and for companies that used IBM's products/services and they've never been anything other than mediocre, sometimes outright bad, with costs that are astronomical. My recommendation is that if you ever think about using an IBM product, hire a developer instead. You'll pay less money for a developer than you would pay for an IBM product, a…

I reckon. I've set up the Rational Suite and FileNet. FileNet alone is worse than a raw Oracle DB. You'd write FileNet SQL, only to work around bugs they have in transforming their SQL to Oracle SQL. Any manager buying IBM software should be in jail for corruption and breach of fiduciary duty.

Re: IBM's reputation at risk in wake of census bungle

#54

IBM's reputation is utterly nonsensical. I've worked for a company bought by IBM and for companies that used IBM's products/services and they've never been anything other than mediocre, sometimes outright bad, with costs that are astronomical. My recommendation is that if you ever think about using an IBM product, hire a developer instead. You'll pay less money for a developer than you would pay for an IBM product, a…

IBM is older, larger, and has better insurance.

Give me a product that works over any of those.

Re: IBM's reputation at risk in wake of census bungle

#55
post #38

If anything it's just cementing their reputation as a complete joke. Corp sector in Australia is on the tail end ridding themselves of IBM nonsense after a decade of utter incompetence. Unfortunately the gov sector catches on slowly. Sadly a lot of places don't learn though and just replace IBM with TCS/TechM which is somehow even worse.

I've dealt with a couple of customers of ours in Australia that have used IBM services for their IT. It's been a complete disaster. I don't know whether they are all that bad, or Australia gets the C team, but, wow.

And don't get me started on TCS. Fucking shitshow.

Re: IBM's reputation at risk in wake of census bungle

#56
post #19
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know how much, but that barely seems like enough to pay for the hardware to deal with 10+ million visitors in one evening. (Apparently they aren't allowed to use cloud infrastructure for data safety / privacy reasons.)

> that barely seems like enough to pay for the hardware to deal with 10+ million visitors in one evening. Really? The specs: The online census form was a pretty simple client side app. I'm going to say, I could whack something together in much less than 200k of JS. For each household the site needs to: 1. Serve the client side app. The app had no images beside the ABS header. I'll be generous and say 200k of static a…

To me it feels like you've left out an awful lot of stuff.

First off is project mgmt and coordination. On the government side there's going to be a small host of people involved, not just a single "customer". Meetings and more meetings. Somewhere between 50% and 100% of someone's time is going to be spent just dealing with them. And that's on top of the normal PM effort (so this could easily be 2 full time people).

You've also left off the generation of the mail outs. This means a data load, an id assignment, and a "print file" for the printer/mailer. High coordination costs (PM now dealing with the gov't and the print shop).

Security. Ouch. Need to make some effort to ensure the mail out codes can't be guessed easily... but are still small enough/readable enough that folks can use them (i.e. a GUID would be perfect except for the low usability). Further there ought to be some sort of post processing that attempts to ensure the data is good (i.e. no one played silly buggers and guessed codes).

On the application side "just in case something happens" isn't good enough. Once the incoming census data is accepted it must not be lost. The statistician would go ballistic (what do you mean you don't know how much data you lost?) and there's really no way to recover lost data without sending out new mailings.

On the back end is the final "give the stats guy the data" step. Conceptually just a giant CSV file... but how likely is that really? Also somewhere/somehow someone needs to build a list of households that have not completed the survey (and reporting on how many/what percentage and eventually producing lists of households for census staff to visit... which is probably handled internally by the existing systems... but it's another entire interface).

And all the design back and forth of how the website should look (and it has to be properly accessible). Not really hard to do on IBM's side... but the gov't side is going to be a nightmare of micromanaging UX specialists.

Oh and general security... it's a web app so there's all that. Hopefully the testing would be handled by a separate organization... which means another organization to coordinate with (PM is gonna be busy).

And of course all the QA you can stand.

Plus... there's legal costs (that contract ain't gonna review itself).

Plus... there's the upfront costs of the actual bidding process. Can't bill for it... but this does mean that every successful bid by IBM needs to be higher to cover these sunk costs (i.e. if IBM wins 20% of all its bids then the costs for 80% of the failed bids need to be covered by the winning 20%... if you see what I mean).

And now IBM needs to pay for some PR/damage control.

In the end I'm not so sure that $9 million is so very out of whack.

And damn it all if I didn't forget to include something for planing/supporting defending against denial of service attacks...

Re: IBM's reputation at risk in wake of census bungle

#57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd wager there were other complexities purely from the govt side. When healthcare.gov launched and crashed, it was uncovered that the final definition of the laws and rules were still coming weeks before the launch and had changed dozens of times throughout. From a purely technical perspective, there's no way to know if something "works" if it hasn't been defined or - worse! - is constantly being redefined on the fl…

>I'd wager there were other complexities purely from the govt side. That is true for oh so many government IT projects. The part that I still struggle to comprehend is "Why on earth aren't the IT companies, like IBM, telling governments that what they're asking isn't actually possible?" The Danish government have an insane amount of failed IT projects. Most of them fails do to the complexity of laws, rules and requir…

[deleted]

Re: IBM's reputation at risk in wake of census bungle

#58
post #29
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IBM is best at writing iron clad contracts that mean precisely that -- no matter the outcome, they get paid.

IBM: You can buy better, but you can't pay more.

  Of course you can pay more.

                      -- Oracle

Re: IBM's reputation at risk in wake of census bungle

#59
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Presumably that kind of process rigor is necessary in massive, high-scope projects, and the fallout we see is chiefly from the inability to apply a more lightweight process for tiny projects?

I'd call it process theater rather than process rigor.

This is hardly limited to IBM or software development. Almost any business that relies on human to human "sales" is at risk of devolving in to a deceptive mess of complexity things that have nothing to do with delivering the desired product or service. That is dangerous because eventually competitors will be lapping you at a tiny fraction of the price.

Re: IBM's reputation at risk in wake of census bungle

#60
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Presumably that kind of process rigor is necessary in massive, high-scope projects, and the fallout we see is chiefly from the inability to apply a more lightweight process for tiny projects?

I'd call it process theater rather than process rigor.

I don't disagree with the description "process theater", but its a common part of the overhead of enterprise contracting (often as a result of the demands of the customer, and often central to the compensation structure), and even a bigger part of the overhead of enterprise contracting that involves subcontracting.

"Securing revenue through enterprise development contracts" is a different discipline than "software development", and optimizing an organization to perform on the former can involve compromising on the latter. (The entities that understand software development well enough to align incentives of contractors well with effective delivery of value are usually the ones that don't need to contract development out in the first place.)

Post reply on HN