Calculus at the heart of the STEM gender gap, study suggests • Hacker News Board

Re: Calculus at the heart of the STEM gender gap, study suggests

#51

Post by sidrajaram » Thu, Aug 04, 2016, 4:37 PM UTC

chrisseaton wrote: post #3

> the notoriously difficult college math class, Calculus I Are college courses in the United States standardised? Does every college have a course they call Calculus I and have the same content and level of difficulty? Calculus seems to be a really big deal in the US education system. In the UK we learn about differentiation and integration in what you would call highschool as just another topic among many, and I don…

The first year or two of math (and physics, and to some degree, CS) are roughly standardized. There are variations, not only across colleges, but within the same college (honors vs. non-honors, calculus for business, calculus for pre-meds who won't take any more math), and among professors teaching different sections of the same class even. But to a first order of magnitude...roughly the same stuff.

Many American students have often taken a year or so of calculus (sometimes more) before starting. But these are so-called "Advanced Placement" (or AP) classes which are considered "college-level" (even though at top colleges, this is basically a requirement to get in). At less competitive/less technically focused colleges/programs however, most students may not have taken it.

You can think of AP as an equivalent of A-levels in the UK. I'm not sure if calculus concepts are A-level or not? But either way, from what I know of UK education, you can get by not taking mathematics A-level...it's the same for AP mathematics here.

Re: Calculus at the heart of the STEM gender gap, study suggests

#52

Post by yareally » Thu, Aug 04, 2016, 4:40 PM UTC

ythl wrote: post #43

vonmoltke wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are on to something. I remember struggling in my math classes (Calculus 2 (Integral), Calculus 3 (Multivariable), and Differential Equations), but doing very well in the major courses that used the same math (Networks, Linear Systems, Electromagnetics, etc.). For me, presenting the math in the context of a concrete application made understanding the principles much easier.

> but doing very well in the major courses that used the same math My school's EE department offered a few math classes (presumably because the EE professors were exasperated with the low level of understanding students were showing with important math concepts). The math classes I took from my Electrical Engineering professors were infinitely more valuable and interesting to me than the equivalent math classes I too…

Yeah, we weren't allowed to use graphing calculators in university Math Department courses either. However, Physics and Computer Science & Engineering courses it was okay to use them.

It was sort of strange though, you could take the same math courses at the local community college that allowed you to use a graphing calculator and transfer them to the university without an issue. I took a few there and enjoyed the classes much more, since they were taught by experienced teachers and not TAs.

Re: Calculus at the heart of the STEM gender gap, study suggests

#53

Post by analog31 » Thu, Aug 04, 2016, 5:16 PM UTC

red_blobs wrote: post #45

If we care so much about the STEM gender gap, why not other majors as well? http://www.randalolson.com/2014/06/14/percentage-of-bachelor... 1) Health Professions (85% women): nursing assistant, veterinary assistant, dental assistant, etc. 2) Public Administration (82% women): social work, public policy, etc. 3) Education (79% women): pre-K, K-12, higher education, etc. 4) Psychology (77% women): cognitive psychology,…

I think there are two related problems with your argument. The first is that everybody has to major in something, so a preponderance of men in one group of majors has to be balanced by a preponderance of women in another group. The statistics are two sides of the same coin.

Second, an unspoken perception is that there is a hierarchy of majors with STEM at one end, and well, something else at the other end. Some majors have weeder courses, others don't. Some majors have GPA requirements for entry, others don't. Nobody drops out of because it's too hard, and majors in chemical engineering instead.

I saw this weeding happen when I taught a freshman algebra course at a big ten university. There were kids who, thanks to their performance in my course, weeded themselves out of their chosen majors. Not every student is in their first choice of major, for a variety of reasons.

Re: Calculus at the heart of the STEM gender gap, study suggests

#54

Post by qihqi » Thu, Aug 04, 2016, 5:33 PM UTC

ythl wrote: post #43

vonmoltke wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are on to something. I remember struggling in my math classes (Calculus 2 (Integral), Calculus 3 (Multivariable), and Differential Equations), but doing very well in the major courses that used the same math (Networks, Linear Systems, Electromagnetics, etc.). For me, presenting the math in the context of a concrete application made understanding the principles much easier.

> but doing very well in the major courses that used the same math My school's EE department offered a few math classes (presumably because the EE professors were exasperated with the low level of understanding students were showing with important math concepts). The math classes I took from my Electrical Engineering professors were infinitely more valuable and interesting to me than the equivalent math classes I too…

To be fair math classes from MATH departments usually have only simple numeric calculations involved, the answer is usually small number fractions combined with pi/e/squareroot of 2 (actually half of time is just 0 or 1). The goal is to force you use identities and manipulate algebraic expressions instead of typing a long long formula into the calculator.

Re: Calculus at the heart of the STEM gender gap, study suggests

#55

Post by yummyfajitas » Thu, Aug 04, 2016, 5:35 PM UTC

hx87 wrote: post #36

yummyfajitas wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does that male student actually become a STEM practitioner, or do they just flunk out at a later date than the female? It's unclear that female behavior here is what needs to be fixed. Perhaps men should drop out more. Another possibility is that both behaviors are correct responses to different incentives. Males generally have far lower social value than females, so for the male it might be STEM or bust. In contrast…

> Males generally have far lower social value than females Probably because men are more willing to marry down socioeconomically, although this is changing and may move further in the direction of equality in the future.

This is not generally what has happened so far - so far women's rise has driven assortative mating rather than women marrying down.

I think this is (in the long haul) a good thing, provided we can encourage high intellect couples to reproduce. It'll generate a high IQ upper caste who will be natural leaders for society.

Re: Calculus at the heart of the STEM gender gap, study suggests

#56

Post by vonmoltke » Thu, Aug 04, 2016, 5:38 PM UTC

qihqi wrote: post #54

ythl wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but doing very well in the major courses that used the same math My school's EE department offered a few math classes (presumably because the EE professors were exasperated with the low level of understanding students were showing with important math concepts). The math classes I took from my Electrical Engineering professors were infinitely more valuable and interesting to me than the equivalent math classes I too…

To be fair math classes from MATH departments usually have only simple numeric calculations involved, the answer is usually small number fractions combined with pi/e/squareroot of 2 (actually half of time is just 0 or 1). The goal is to force you use identities and manipulate algebraic expressions instead of typing a long long formula into the calculator.

That is more representative of what I got in my engineering classes. The math classes used problems where it was easy to make non-obvious errors.

Re: Calculus at the heart of the STEM gender gap, study suggests

#57

Post by sotojuan » Thu, Aug 04, 2016, 5:56 PM UTC

DarkContinent wrote: post #17

arcanus wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some of this is in the eye of the beholder. I've seen people working 10+ hours in a class and still end up with an A, but found the process mentally exhausting. Others might barely work at it and end up with an A-, and think that it was pretty easy. At least in my experience as a math major undergraduate, calculus was a class that introduces students to rigorous proofs and new lines of thinking, but in examination se…

From what I've seen, the GPA obsession tends to be common to all students trying for some sort of grad/med/law school, and therefore not tied to major. Non-grad-school bound students, by contrast, are typically much more relaxed.

GPA matters a lot in some industries—plenty of finance firms won't look at you if you are below their treshold. We're spoiled in that someone with a 2.8 Comp Sci GPA can still get a dev job.

That said, GPA obsession is a thing in high school, regardless of future plans, so it carries to college even in majors/paths where it doesn't matter.

Re: Calculus at the heart of the STEM gender gap, study suggests

#58

Post by sotojuan » Thu, Aug 04, 2016, 6:00 PM UTC

tmptmp wrote: post #50

>>“When women are leaving, it is because they don’t think they can do it – not because they can’t do it,” said study co-author Bailey Fosdick in a press release. Very aptly put. It reminded me a quote by Henry Ford: "If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right." We must encourage the women (and also the men) entering STEM courses to persist even in case of initial difficulties. Another…

You know what's interesting? Our grade school math sucks and a ton of people get scared of college math... yet we have some of the top math universities and both graduate top scientists/engineers and attract foreign talent. I wonder how many more good mathematicians we'd have if we taught it well.

Re: Calculus at the heart of the STEM gender gap, study suggests

#59

Post by hx87 » Thu, Aug 04, 2016, 6:16 PM UTC

yummyfajitas wrote: post #55

hx87 wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Males generally have far lower social value than females Probably because men are more willing to marry down socioeconomically, although this is changing and may move further in the direction of equality in the future.

This is not generally what has happened so far - so far women's rise has driven assortative mating rather than women marrying down. I think this is (in the long haul) a good thing, provided we can encourage high intellect couples to reproduce. It'll generate a high IQ upper caste who will be natural leaders for society.

Men have become more socioeconomically selective, at least to a greater extent than women have become less selective. I think you and I are in agreement there.

Re: Calculus at the heart of the STEM gender gap, study suggests

#60

Post by peterwwillis » Thu, Aug 04, 2016, 7:52 PM UTC

sotojuan wrote: post #46

peterwwillis wrote: post #29

There's a significant portion of tech jobs that don't require degrees, yet these jobs aren't being filled by women either. I would have dropped CS immediately if it required difficult math, as even simple math problems can take me a considerable amount of time to finish. But i've worked in tech my whole life. I guess my question is, do we really believe difficult college courses are the main thing supporting a STEM/t…

Most tech jobs requires college degrees though. Maybe in SF and NYC and HN we talk about how they're not relevant but out in the real world, outside of big cities I always see "B.S. in Computer Science or equivalent".

And most tech job requirements are flexible. It says "or equivalent"... that means equivalent experience, or skill. If you don't have a degree, or even experience, you can still demonstrate your skill, and they may take you at less pay or on a probationary period, or as an intern-to-hire.

The biggest problem tech companies have with hiring is that most people applying are simply bad at the job. They really could not care less if you graduated, they just need a competent worker. If anything, it might be the opposite of how you describe: big cities have a larger pool of experienced graduates from which to pick, and smaller cities have to take what they can get.