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The vanishing civility: The game of jerks, bozos and assholes

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Re: The vanishing civility: The game of jerks, bozos and assholes

#51

Post by jkaptur »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #22
jbmorgado wrote: post #9

Actually I see the present problem as exactly the opposite. More and more we live in a culture where people think it's their right to feel offended and for anyone saying anything that makes them fell that way to just be shut up by someone (some faculty department for instance). It is becoming basically a Politically Correct culture of censorship and we keep seeing opinion texts (just like this one) that appeal to tha…

There are people who are genuinely toxic. If they get in your company, they'll destroy it. (The worst I've ever seen, I fortunately never had to work with. But if I did, I would make it clear to management that it was me or him within five minutes of his being hired.) Then there are people who are genuinely too thin skinned. If you listen to their complaints, they'll lead you to destroy your company, because you'll p…

Five minutes seems awfully short. What made you so sure so fast?

Re: The vanishing civility: The game of jerks, bozos and assholes

#52

Post by vroombaprime »

dang wrote: post #6
andrewbinstock wrote: post #3

When I was the editor of Dr. Dobb's, we were very concerned about how to create a lively discussion forum that was free from jerks and unpleasant people. Ultimately, we settled on two components: treat everyone respectfully even those who seemed to be trolling, and delete all insulting posts. This largely worked. Similar elements seem to work here on HN too. That the efficacy of this approach is repeatable suggests t…

I'm glad to hear that an experienced editor sees HN that way, and also that you see evidence of a repeatable approach. Those are good signs. As I'm sure you know, it's a more complex problem than just being willing or unwilling to put up with bad behavior. There are costs to addressing it—quite a few, it turns out, no matter what approach one takes. Our plan is to move HN toward more community self-regulation. Each s…

You guys do a great job with HN moderation and I've always been curious what ratio of mods:numComments is sustainable and still keep quality high and mods not burned out - do you think HN is a good datapoint or just special?

Re: The vanishing civility: The game of jerks, bozos and assholes

#54

Post by duaneb »

kiba wrote: post #48
duaneb wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That the efficacy of this approach is repeatable suggests that the problem exists primarily b/c sites are willing to put up with bad behavior. I think there's a little more at play, here. Look at the two subreddits /r/askhistorians and /r/askreddit, which vary about as much as possible in moderation patterns and resulting quality: /r/askhistorians is possibly the best moderated forum on the internet, allowing only…

I keep seeing deleted comments on /r/askhistorians though. Community is so big that they probably get new users all the time that they don't know the rule.

Oh yea, the most popular posts are known as "comment graveyards" because they're cross posted to other reddits. But believe it or not, that's a sign that the moderation is working well. It's the less popular posts that slip past the front page before being replied to that slip in quality—those posts will often have sub-standard replies that never get the moderation they deserve.

Re: The vanishing civility: The game of jerks, bozos and assholes

#55

Post by coldtea »

andrewbinstock wrote: post #3

When I was the editor of Dr. Dobb's, we were very concerned about how to create a lively discussion forum that was free from jerks and unpleasant people. Ultimately, we settled on two components: treat everyone respectfully even those who seemed to be trolling, and delete all insulting posts. This largely worked. Similar elements seem to work here on HN too. That the efficacy of this approach is repeatable suggests t…

>When I was the editor of Dr. Dobb's, we were very concerned about how to create a lively discussion forum that was free from jerks and unpleasant people.

I think this seminal essay is required reading on such matters: http://www.shirky.com/writings/herecomeseverybody/group_enem...

Re: The vanishing civility: The game of jerks, bozos and assholes

#56

Post by chc »

at-fates-hands wrote: post #33
Mz wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That the efficacy of this approach is repeatable suggests that the problem exists primarily b/c sites are willing to put up with bad behavior. Many people, even people running discussion forums with years of experience, simply do not know how to fix it and often believe it cannot be fixed. It is also common for them to "put out the fire with gasoline." On an email list, I used to say "fighting against the fighting is…

>> Many people do not know how to address bad behavior that doesn't involve some form of fighting, punishment, etc and this tends to deepen the problem rather than resolve it. While I would agree with this, I would add that banning and punishing people only makes them try harder to continue to be the thorn in your side and make every else just that much more miserable. Multiple accounts, using proxies, and other mean…

A few people will do this. Most people won't, in my experience, especially if you use hellbanning. I've seen HN accounts full of rude comments that have been hellbanned for years.

Re: The vanishing civility: The game of jerks, bozos and assholes

#57

Post by coldtea »

mwsherman wrote: post #2

A little meta-civility goes a long way, too. If one is inclined to call people jerks, bozos and assholes, perhaps one is not understanding people very well. It’s much more effective to work learn about people, their predilections, biases and experiences. No one is a “checkbox” asshole. Much better to focus on specific behaviors, instead of writing off a person as a type. When I see a company describe its “no assholes…

>A little meta-civility goes a long way, too.

Yes, but you can easily blow up the stack with all this recursion, since the real world doesn't have TCO.

>If one is inclined to call people jerks, bozos and assholes, perhaps one is not understanding people very well.

Well, some people legitimately and truly are "jerks, bozos and assholes" though, some even embrace the jerk ethos openly. If you're addressing them, it's fair game to call them that.

Except if your worry is that calling them that wont help them change but alienate them -- but maybe changing them is not the author's goal, but rather routing around them.

>When I see a company describe its “no assholes” rule, I see a company inclined toward calling people assholes.

That's not the bad thing though is it? The bad thing would be being an asshole, not calling out one. So, as long as the company doesn't do it to people undeserving the title...

Re: The vanishing civility: The game of jerks, bozos and assholes

#58

Post by coldtea »

jarsin wrote: post #41

The biggest asshole I ever worked for had a "No Assholes Allowed" rule. I came to learn that it meant if you ever say or do or criticize anything this guy did not like he would label you an asshole and then your career path was over there if he did not fire you. It created a culture of the ass-kissers vs the assholes lol.

>The biggest asshole I ever worked for had a "No Assholes Allowed" rule.

Well, he probably meant "there's only room for one in this company".

Re: The vanishing civility: The game of jerks, bozos and assholes

#59

Post by coldtea »

gozur88 wrote: post #53

Is there really less civility today, or have people redrawn the boundaries of civility such that other people's opinions are more likely to fall outside its bounds?

I think today we are much more casual. In the past it was more common to be much more professional and civil, at least in certain white collar occupations.

Now a lot more "personal expression", including assholery, is allowed and tolerated even.

Consider propellerhead programmers in the 60s with pocket protectors and all, and modern brogrammers.

Re: The vanishing civility: The game of jerks, bozos and assholes

#60

Post by coldtea »

current_call wrote: post #45

This is so badly written I'm having trouble finding a way to explain it without resorting to nitpicking. The essay starts with respect, decorum, and civility, but only discusses civility. Almost every special term is stuck between scare quotes instead of being explained. It's so bad. Nitpicking Time Respect, decorum and civility are not only disappearing from the political discourse. Why mention respect and decorum i…

>Why mention respect and decorum if the essay is only about civility?

Because respect and decorum are part of the total package of civility, even if we can nominally separate them.

>I didn't realize I had something to gain from being rude.

Ethically maybe not, but being rude etc can (and has traditionally been) used to one's advantage. E.g. it can fence off people from one's territory, it can intimidate people into giving one what he/she wants, it can make you accepted into a higher echelon that pisses on subordinates, etc.

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