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Linux 4.7 Released

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Re: Linux 4.7 Released

#51

Post by executesorder66 »

grawlinson wrote: post #29
voltagex_ wrote: post #26

Honest question: how many years do you think it'll be until embedded device manufacturers (routers, various TV boxes, wifi hard drives [1]) ship recent kernels? A $200 modem/router bought 6 months ago ships with a hacked up version of 2.6.36.4 that's barely buildable - mainly because the wifi chipset vendor refuses to open source their code and refuses to update the BSP [2]. 1: http://www.seagate.com/au/en/support/do…

>mainly because the wifi chipset vendor refuses to open source their code and refuses to update the BSP In that case, never. Trying to get vendors to open source anything is a hilarious exercise in futility.

> Trying to get vendors to open source anything is a hilarious exercise in futility.

I hate that this is true. Could anyone explain to me why though? Would it not make life easier for them if they just open sourced their firmware and let other people update/maintain it? (Sorry for the noob question, I haven't looked into this in detail)

Re: Linux 4.7 Released

#52

Post by di4na »

voltagex_ wrote: post #26

Honest question: how many years do you think it'll be until embedded device manufacturers (routers, various TV boxes, wifi hard drives [1]) ship recent kernels? A $200 modem/router bought 6 months ago ships with a hacked up version of 2.6.36.4 that's barely buildable - mainly because the wifi chipset vendor refuses to open source their code and refuses to update the BSP [2]. 1: http://www.seagate.com/au/en/support/do…

You also have to keep in mind that, sadly, most of the toolchain for embedded is... quite old and proprietary. There is a whole ecosystem that force you to stay stucked at old stuff.

I know a ton of embedded company that still have windows 98 or XP machine, because they need them to drive their flash tools or their debugger.

The whole industry stopped updating when the software part tried super hard to sell them Java... and it did not work that well...

Re: Linux 4.7 Released

#53

Post by __david__ »

voltagex_ wrote: post #33
pmorici wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have to look at it from their perspective. Why spend money updating something that works? The number of people who care that their device firmware uses a recent Linux kernel version is so infinitesimally small satisfying them wouldn't even move the needle on sales and you apparently bought one any ways so why should they care? If you want hardware you can tinker with build your own from parts you know work with r…

I've been told I bought the wrong device repeatedly. Annoyingly a day after I bought it, I didn't need the ADSL modem any more. For years, I needed Broadcom ADSL chipsets to get >5 megabit downstream at home, but my next upgrade will probably be a separate router and WiFi AP.

I have had good luck with that separation. I use an Apple Airport Extreme for my wifi (running in bridge mode), and a PC Engines "apu" [1] running OpenWRT for my router. I figure the wireless part is a detail I don't care too much about—it just gets my laptop onto the wired ethernet. The router is totally open source and hackable and I like that.

[1] http://pcengines.ch/apu1d.htm

Re: Linux 4.7 Released

#54

Post by kalleboo »

ashitlerferad wrote: post #38
voltagex_ wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did see this, has it shipped? At the time I needed a new modem as I was stuck on ADSL, but I've since (luckily) been upgraded to a fibre connection that only requires something that can speak PPPoE.

Do you get to plug the fibre strands directly into your own equipment?? Most places telco equipment must be installed and you just get an Ethernet connection. The Omnia has not shipped yet, but production is starting soon. Their kickstarter was wildly successful.

Around these parts you get an optical SC outlet like this http://i.imgur.com/4n9m0q6.jpg into which you plug the operator-provided equipment. Which means you ought to be able to replace it, but I honestly don't know if you there is any third party equipment for sale...

Re: Linux 4.7 Released

#55

Post by adrianratnapala »

pmorici wrote: post #30
voltagex_ wrote: post #26

Honest question: how many years do you think it'll be until embedded device manufacturers (routers, various TV boxes, wifi hard drives [1]) ship recent kernels? A $200 modem/router bought 6 months ago ships with a hacked up version of 2.6.36.4 that's barely buildable - mainly because the wifi chipset vendor refuses to open source their code and refuses to update the BSP [2]. 1: http://www.seagate.com/au/en/support/do…

You have to look at it from their perspective. Why spend money updating something that works? The number of people who care that their device firmware uses a recent Linux kernel version is so infinitesimally small satisfying them wouldn't even move the needle on sales and you apparently bought one any ways so why should they care? If you want hardware you can tinker with build your own from parts you know work with r…

It's a mistake from the manufacturers perspective too.

Because they don't have a proper QA procedure at the software level, they fear change and have to keep maintaining an in-house snapshot of a archaic ecosystem. They spend and more keeping the obsolete system going, because they have in past years made the cost of upgrading higher and higher.

Eventually they get forced into ground-up rewrites, with all their predictable problems.

Re: Linux 4.7 Released

#56

Post by throwaway_exer »

executesorder66 wrote: post #51
grawlinson wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>mainly because the wifi chipset vendor refuses to open source their code and refuses to update the BSP In that case, never. Trying to get vendors to open source anything is a hilarious exercise in futility.

> Trying to get vendors to open source anything is a hilarious exercise in futility. I hate that this is true. Could anyone explain to me why though? Would it not make life easier for them if they just open sourced their firmware and let other people update/maintain it? (Sorry for the noob question, I haven't looked into this in detail)

1) opens them up to more patent infringement lawsuits

2) FCC prefers SDN radios be blackboxes

3) costs more money to document and support

Re: Linux 4.7 Released

#57

Post by INTPenis »

voltagex_ wrote: post #26

Honest question: how many years do you think it'll be until embedded device manufacturers (routers, various TV boxes, wifi hard drives [1]) ship recent kernels? A $200 modem/router bought 6 months ago ships with a hacked up version of 2.6.36.4 that's barely buildable - mainly because the wifi chipset vendor refuses to open source their code and refuses to update the BSP [2]. 1: http://www.seagate.com/au/en/support/do…

Curiously timed question because when the 4.7 kernel release announcement was sent out I googled one of the contributs on a whim and found that they worked for a company that builds embedded systems. And this guy is contributing to the 4.7 kernel. ;)

But that's just one guy, one company. I believe most companies like the stability of using something old and well proven.

Re: Linux 4.7 Released

#58

Post by stephenr »

voltagex_ wrote: post #49
stephenr wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but my next upgrade will probably be a separate router and WiFi AP Personally I go the "other" way. Router + WiFi (I use an Airport, but pick your poison), and then the most basic modem possible for the location - this might be a provider-supplied DOCSIS Modem/Router in bridge mode, right now it's a provider-supplied "1 port" ADSL2+ modem/router in bridge mode. With an ADSL setup, you'll probably need to use PPPoE…

The problem I've found is that a few of the ISP supplied devices no longer allow bridge mode, or you lose access to features ("free" city wifi).

With adsl, I'd just discard the isp device and use a cheap modem-only device.

As I said docsis is often MAC address controlled, so if you can't get the admin password to unlock the devices (http://portforward.com has lots of isp configs/auth details) you could buy your own docsis modem/router that supports configurable MAC address and simply spoof the isp provided device.

For fibre based devices usually you just have a ONT with an Ethernet port, so no modem required just plug in your router.

If you can give more info on the specific last-mile tech you're dealing with, we can probably make some suggestions.

Re: Linux 4.7 Released

#59

Post by voltagex_ »

stephenr wrote: post #58
voltagex_ wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem I've found is that a few of the ISP supplied devices no longer allow bridge mode, or you lose access to features ("free" city wifi).

With adsl, I'd just discard the isp device and use a cheap modem-only device. As I said docsis is often MAC address controlled, so if you can't get the admin password to unlock the devices ( http://portforward.com has lots of isp configs/auth details) you could buy your own docsis modem/router that supports configurable MAC address and simply spoof the isp provided device. For fibre based devices usually you just hav…

Fibre to the home. I think your ONT is my NTD. Box on my wall that I'm not really allowed to touch, then Ethernet straight to my router which handles PPPoE.

Re: Linux 4.7 Released

#60

Post by stephenr »

voltagex_ wrote: post #59
stephenr wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With adsl, I'd just discard the isp device and use a cheap modem-only device. As I said docsis is often MAC address controlled, so if you can't get the admin password to unlock the devices ( http://portforward.com has lots of isp configs/auth details) you could buy your own docsis modem/router that supports configurable MAC address and simply spoof the isp provided device. For fibre based devices usually you just hav…

Fibre to the home. I think your ONT is my NTD. Box on my wall that I'm not really allowed to touch, then Ethernet straight to my router which handles PPPoE.

Well pretty much any router with a PPPoE client should work then.

What is the "free city wifi" thing you referred to that requires the isp provided router?

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