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Open Letter to the Emacs Maintainers

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Re: Open Letter to the Emacs Maintainers

#51

Post by sanswork »

mixedCase wrote: post #42
sanswork wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Codes of conduct are a flavor of the month, and they don't achieve anything In other words you've never felt harassed. That's a good thing but it doesn't mean your situation is all encompassing. >The same is true for the types of offenses typical of a code of conduct. Also a good thing. How many times have you rejected a patch because someone was harassing another member of your community?

He says "Codes of conduct" don't work and your response is this?: >In other words you've never felt harassed. Do you fail to see the problem here? >Also a good thing. How many times have you rejected a patch because someone was harassing another member of your community? Does one need a written down, politically charged, potentially divisive document in legalese to say "I don't want to share my toys with the class bu…

He said codes of conduct don't achieve anything. The only way to believe that is to have never felt harassed. So no I don't see the problem.

>Does one need a written down, politically charged, potentially divisive document in legalese to say "I don't want to share my toys with the class bully"?

Apparently yes given the number of abusive people that have been active members of a lot of communities which now have codes of conduct.

Re: Open Letter to the Emacs Maintainers

#52

Post by ciupicri »

drivingmenuts wrote: post #49
ciupicri wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's so bad about a code reviewer which starts sending you dick pics compared to a code reviewer which starts sending you cat pics? They're both a waste of time.

While one might be an annoying waste of your time, the other is not only annoying, but quite possibly illegal as well. I leave it to you to figure out which is which.

What's so illegal in some dick pics?

Re: Open Letter to the Emacs Maintainers

#53

Post by sanswork »

falcolas wrote: post #33
xenadu02 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the exact opposite of the intention of a Code of Conduct. Can you point out exactly what isnt welcoming about rules like "no racism" or "criticize code, not people"? Do you have a burning desire to call people "honkey" in code reviews? Can't live without calling people stupid for being old/young? Is being prohibited from stalking other contributors so you can call their workplace and get them in trouble a huge…

If you have to rely on a CoC to get your contributors to not "be jerks" and "be professional", you have other issues with your community which really need to be addressed first. No CoC is ever going to stop a jerk from being a jerk. It will just prompt the jerks to work around it and cause even more headaches for the contributors. Worse, it brings about those who only want to criticize the CoC, either because it's to…

>No CoC is ever going to stop a jerk from being a jerk.

Right but it will remove the jerks from the community.

>It will just prompt the jerks to work around it and cause even more headaches for the contributors.

How do you imagine this happening?

>Taking the time to address critiques on a CoC is time taken away from actually developing on a project and building a community who cares about the project, not the CoC.

Spending time complaining about a set of guidelines that say don't be a jerk is time taken away from actually developing on a project. Except the people doing it are complaining about not being allowed to be jerks.

Re: Open Letter to the Emacs Maintainers

#54

Post by to3m »

ciupicri wrote: post #43
xenadu02 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you serious or arguing insincerely? I can't tell. Codes of conduct are a direct response to ongoing harassment and stalking against various contributors of various open-source projects, followed by inaction on the part of the project maintainers or the excuse of "that just can't handle criticism". What is so offensive about saying "make it about the code, not about the person" and "don't stalk, dox, or harass peo…

What's so bad about a code reviewer which starts sending you dick pics compared to a code reviewer which starts sending you cat pics? They're both a waste of time.

The thing that's so bad about dick pics is people don't like them. And what better reason for something being bad could there be?

Re: Open Letter to the Emacs Maintainers

#55

Post by flukus »

MichaelGG wrote: post #34
flukus wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can anyone explain slack to me? It just seems like a shitty reinvention of IRC.

Doesn't require an IRC client, looks slick, has rich text, and integrations with other platforms. Biggest thing is that it doesn't need an IRC server. It could have been made with IRC underneath, but you'd want an intermediate layer to retain messages and so on.

There are web based IRC clients. IRC can integrate with other platforms pretty easily. IRC doesn't require setting up your own server.

Being able to setup your own server is a benefit, not a negative. Much like twitter it seems to be another regressions from an open internet to corporate control.

The only positive I can see is rich text, but that has extremely limited value in a chat program. History is nice too but IME too painful to use (scroll, load, scroll, load, scroll, load) to be of any practical benefit.

Re: Open Letter to the Emacs Maintainers

#56

Post by cariaso »

sanswork wrote: post #51
mixedCase wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He says "Codes of conduct" don't work and your response is this?: >In other words you've never felt harassed. Do you fail to see the problem here? >Also a good thing. How many times have you rejected a patch because someone was harassing another member of your community? Does one need a written down, politically charged, potentially divisive document in legalese to say "I don't want to share my toys with the class bu…

He said codes of conduct don't achieve anything. The only way to believe that is to have never felt harassed. So no I don't see the problem. >Does one need a written down, politically charged, potentially divisive document in legalese to say "I don't want to share my toys with the class bully"? Apparently yes given the number of abusive people that have been active members of a lot of communities which now have codes…

> The only way to believe that is to have never felt harassed.

Try believing that I could have been harassed, but feel that a code of conduct would not have prevented nor resolved the problem.

Re: Open Letter to the Emacs Maintainers

#57

Post by ciupicri »

to3m wrote: post #54
ciupicri wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's so bad about a code reviewer which starts sending you dick pics compared to a code reviewer which starts sending you cat pics? They're both a waste of time.

The thing that's so bad about dick pics is people don't like them . And what better reason for something being bad could there be?

Not people, just some people. Also there are people who don't like cats.

Re: Open Letter to the Emacs Maintainers

#58

Post by sanswork »

cariaso wrote: post #56
sanswork wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He said codes of conduct don't achieve anything. The only way to believe that is to have never felt harassed. So no I don't see the problem. >Does one need a written down, politically charged, potentially divisive document in legalese to say "I don't want to share my toys with the class bully"? Apparently yes given the number of abusive people that have been active members of a lot of communities which now have codes…

> The only way to believe that is to have never felt harassed. Try believing that I could have been harassed, but feel that a code of conduct would not have prevented nor resolved the problem.

I've tried and I can't. Could you please share what happened to help me understand?

Re: Open Letter to the Emacs Maintainers

#59

Post by flukus »

cariaso wrote: post #23
xenadu02 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you serious or arguing insincerely? I can't tell. Codes of conduct are a direct response to ongoing harassment and stalking against various contributors of various open-source projects, followed by inaction on the part of the project maintainers or the excuse of "that just can't handle criticism". What is so offensive about saying "make it about the code, not about the person" and "don't stalk, dox, or harass peo…

He's quite sincere, and there are others of us who agree. Codes of conduct are a flavor of the month, and they don't achieve anything. I don't need to pre-announce that I will not accept patches from murderers or pedophiles, I can simply do it. The same is true for the types of offenses typical of a code of conduct. Perhaps it is generational, and the new guard will eventually win this battle one funeral at a time. B…

>I don't need to pre-announce that I will not accept patches from murderers or pedophiles, I can simply do it.

The question is, why would you care? What the person does in their personal life is outside the scope of the project.

Re: Open Letter to the Emacs Maintainers

#60

Post by caente »

The OP is talking hard facts, ENSIME _do_ have a low barrier for contributing. I have been witness of the continuous effort to make it more so. He is sharing what has worked for them. Are solutions "fads" now? Aren't we engineers and problem solvers? What's all this nonsense of "respecting tradition" and "elders"?

I'm not saying that experience is worthless, I'll be the first in defending it, but I also know, first hand, that as we get a little older, we get too used to our ways, even if there are others more efficient, that require change.

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