How a Quest by Elites Is Driving ‘Brexit’ and Trump • Hacker News Board

Re: How a Quest by Elites Is Driving ‘Brexit’ and Trump

#51

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Jul 18, 2016, 9:37 AM UTC

rahimnathwani wrote: post #11

cmarschner wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For economists, efficiency is simply that goods should be created where the surroundings are best suited for it - first described by David Ricardo in the 19th century. E.g. Cotton should be planted where there is the most fertile soil etc. This works best in a globalized economy where production can move around freely and where there are no trade restrictions. As a result, productivity is higher, meaning that goods a…

"Cotton should be planted where there is the most fertile soil etc." Nitpick: this statement is about absolute advantage, whereas Ricardo emphasised comparative advantage: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparative_advantage#Ricardo.... Imagine that you're better than me at everything (both programming and needlework). You can program three times as fast, and sew twice as fast as I can. Does that mean you should do al…

[deleted]

Re: How a Quest by Elites Is Driving ‘Brexit’ and Trump

#52

Post by monk_e_boy » Mon, Jul 18, 2016, 9:38 AM UTC

didibus wrote: post #39

I recall a study that showed that above average income workers supported Trump at a higher percentage. If that's true, it seems to contradict the whole premise of this article. They should have asked those same Yale grads if they were voting Trump or not.

People also have friends or relatives who would be better off under Brexit or Trump. I know a lot of rich people who want better for other people and adjust their vote accordingly.

Re: How a Quest by Elites Is Driving ‘Brexit’ and Trump

#53

Post by pjc50 » Mon, Jul 18, 2016, 9:38 AM UTC

rospaya wrote: post #27

yAnonymous wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. The average citizen doesn't see much of the benefits of globalization. It mostly helps governments and companies.

Tell that to my cheap phone made in China running an OS made by developers from around the world. My Turkish t-shirt, the Spanish tomatoes I ate this morning or the server I'm remotely setting up on the other side of the planet, so my company can sell their services there.

You benefit as a consumer, but you may lose as a worker.

We end up in this strange environment where manufactured goods are very cheap compared to housing and professional non-importable services like health and education.

Re: How a Quest by Elites Is Driving ‘Brexit’ and Trump

#54

Post by madaxe_again » Mon, Jul 18, 2016, 9:40 AM UTC

objectivistbrit wrote: post #47

I'm pro-economic liberty and voted for Brexit. Every analysis like this has tunnel vision: yes, the free trade opened up by the EU brought prosperity to an entire continent. Had we been voting for the 1970s era EEC, I'd have gladly voted Remain. But in 40 years the EEC has evolved into the EU, with a constitution, a parliament, a president, a national anthem, a flag, supreme law-making powers and a currency. Maybe th…

What's wrong with integration? You clearly think it's bad but don't say why.

Ah, downvote me for replying with a question. Mature. I guess you don't have a reason that doesn't boil down to "I don't want foreigners next door"?

Re: How a Quest by Elites Is Driving ‘Brexit’ and Trump

#55

Post by majewsky » Mon, Jul 18, 2016, 9:40 AM UTC

rospaya wrote: post #27

yAnonymous wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. The average citizen doesn't see much of the benefits of globalization. It mostly helps governments and companies.

Tell that to my cheap phone made in China running an OS made by developers from around the world. My Turkish t-shirt, the Spanish tomatoes I ate this morning or the server I'm remotely setting up on the other side of the planet, so my company can sell their services there.

The mere existence of globalization is not a counter-argument to the grandparent. To construct a counter-argument, you need to proof that the Turkish t-shirt and Spanish tomatoes are actually a benefit to you (or rather, to the mythical "average person").

Re: How a Quest by Elites Is Driving ‘Brexit’ and Trump

#56

Post by CM30 » Mon, Jul 18, 2016, 9:41 AM UTC

flukus wrote: post #17

jwblackwell wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

London largely voted remain so not really. However I think youth are rightly frustrated about London prices

40% of London voted to leave, that's enough to change the outcome. I don't think pretending there is a huge geographical divide is particularly helpful.

There was a huge divide in London too. Places like Camden, Kensington and Barnet overwhelmingly voted remain. Other places like Havering, Barking and Dagenham and Bexley voted to leave. And some areas (like Newham) were extremely close as far as percentages go.

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/london-eu-referendum...

General rule seems to be that places with lots of university students or large businesses tended to vote remain and those with either deeply conservative populations or a lot of immigration tended to vote leave.

Re: How a Quest by Elites Is Driving ‘Brexit’ and Trump

#57

Post by majewsky » Mon, Jul 18, 2016, 9:42 AM UTC

yummyfajitas wrote: post #32

I'm a little amazed at the tone of this article. People rent a home, and then exploit the democratic process in a beggar-thy-potential-neighbors strategy. They use things like rent control and other anti-migrant policies (e.g. anti-Google bus policies in SF, anti-Hijab laws in France) to enrich themselves at the expense of others. Because her wealthy uncles lost their job, and had a small drop in their standard of li…

> Elite institutions - think of banking or tech - tend to be truly global enterprises, open to anyone who can demonstrate the requisite ability.

So you're saying that people of color and women just aren't fit to rule the world? The ethnic and gender distribution among elite managers etc. is certainly not representative.

Re: How a Quest by Elites Is Driving ‘Brexit’ and Trump

#58

Post by majewsky » Mon, Jul 18, 2016, 9:43 AM UTC

gpvos wrote: post #48

majewsky wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed. I can understand that a lot of economic policies can be viewed in the way the author describes (a relentless pursuit of efficiency), but Ivy League overlords are also doing a lot of stuff that's just plain greed and can't be explained away with efficiency. For example high-frequency trading. Or (here in Germany) renting ruinous hotels to the government as refugee centers at bizarre rates because there was lit…

High-frequency trading is usually justified by pointing at increased market fluidity, which is a positive thing in principle. Whether that is enough justification for the problems it causes is clearly something that should be discussed more.

Ah right, market fluidity was their cover-up story. I'm absolutely not convinced, seeing how billions of dollars and euros are pumped into the market to increase fluidity, with questionable success.

Re: How a Quest by Elites Is Driving ‘Brexit’ and Trump

#59

Post by dingaling » Mon, Jul 18, 2016, 9:44 AM UTC

majewsky wrote: post #44

dingaling wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you look at the age breakdown of the vote That's not the breakdown of the vote but of exit polls and other opt-in polling such as YouGov surveys. Both of which are biased towards those (1) likely to contribute and (2) not concerned about sharing how they voted. The actual demographic composition of the vote is unknown, it could be determined ( all UK ballot papers are linked to their voter ) but that would be un…

> (2) not concerned about sharing how they voted Are exit polls not anonymized in the UK? At the last federal election in Germany, I was asked to contribute in an exit poll, and they had their own voting booth and urn set up for that purpose next to the actual voting room. The ballot was mostly identical, except for additional checkboxes for age group and gender, which they wanted to break down in their analyses. So…

The exit poll for the EU referendum at my local voting station was conducted by a man with a tablet computer! I didn't stop to investigate the process, unfortunately.

Re: How a Quest by Elites Is Driving ‘Brexit’ and Trump

#60

Post by CM30 » Mon, Jul 18, 2016, 9:47 AM UTC

caconym_ wrote: post #20

I may be reading this too late at night, but the theory seems to be that our benevolent, perfectly logical Ivy League-educated overlords regrettably have to break a few eggs to make a delicious omelette of economic prosperity for all, and those broken eggs are enough to make people throw up their hands and vote for Trump/Brexit/whatever just for a chance to cling to the present, the good old days, at the expense of t…

Pretty much this. And that's the issue with globalisation; it's great for those at the top, decent for those at the very bottom and often rather awful for those in the middle.

The votes for Brexit, Trump, various far left and right wing parties, etc are a way of saying "let's watch the elite's world and system collapse on itself". They've seen how little any of this is doing for them as workers, and how every system seems stacked in favour of the well off, and they just want to see it all burn to the ground.