Live data from Hacker News

FBI says it won't recommend charges in Clinton case

abcnews.go.com

51–60 of 65 posts

Re: FBI says it won't recommend charges in Clinton case

#51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not trying to get into an argument, but you specifically said: "If you believe that previous people in the same position also had private servers and received classified information on them, why do you hold it against her?" That pretty clearly implicated previous people and my beliefs/feelings, no? I feel like you're trolling me here.

Not at all. I chose your response because you seemed more balanced than some of the other people who are way out on one side of the debate or the other. So I wondered why you, evidently relatively moderate in your view, fell where you did. In my eyes, the fact the key issue was the accepted actions of the predecessors. (I may have this wrong, though, based on another response I received in this thread, but that respo…

I fail to see where s/he said they were okay with the predecessors actions. You appear to be making a huge assumption. S/he said what she did was wrong and nothing about predecessors. I would make the assumption that s/he believes the predecessors were wrong too (assuming they did the exact same thing) and not assume that this has something to do with subject of this instance.

Re: FBI says it won't recommend charges in Clinton case

#52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you believe that previous people in the same position also had private servers and received classified information on them, why do you hold it against her? http://www.cnn.com/2016/02/04/politics/hillary-clinton-email... Do you not believe that things are "overly" classified, and are liberally and retroactively labelled as such?

"If you believe that previous people in the same position also had private servers and received classified information on them, why do you hold it against her?" Two wrongs don't make a right. Should failure to prosecute prior crimes mean that charges for the same crimes in the future be dropped? "Do you not believe that things are "overly" classified, and are liberally and retroactively labelled as such?" The regulat…

Is it just me or do people see to be over looking the violation of the 2009 Federal Records Act and the violation of the Freedom of Information Act?

I understand most folks are concerned about the classified information but it seems the other two issues are forgotten.

Re: FBI says it won't recommend charges in Clinton case

#53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Private as opposed to public or government. Not private in the sense of their own set up for themselves. I didn't think that was the distinction you were focused on.

But the distinction is material.

Just to be clear, let's set up some terms:

1. Government server - whatever the gov sets up

2. Private server - a service like hotmail or gmail

3. Personal server - something on a box you hire someone to set up for you

We agree that the violation is setting up a non #1 type server, but you are saying it matters if it was #2 or #3?

If that is what you are saying, please elaborate on why you think so. (I don't see that it matters much, but am curious about your argument).

Re: FBI says it won't recommend charges in Clinton case

#54
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

okay, well, if this bears out what you said, I'll stop using this argument. p.s. what article?

Bah did the link in my comment not work? I tried updating my original comment to link to http://www.politico.com/story/2015/03/state-department-email... but now there's two versions of my comment, one pre-edit in this chain and one post-edit in another chain I can't find. This article is heavily biased, I think, but it mentions the post Powell rulings. In the Judicial Watch testimony of Cheryl Mills she mentioned the…

Ah, but here is an important distinction too.

The State Department can't pass laws for which you can be jailed. It can only pass internal rules which it can use to fire you etc. It also cannot produce interpretations or clarifications of laws since only judges do that.

Only congress can pass laws, and so illegal is a strong term reserved for violations of those laws.

There is a case for violating those laws, of course, which is whatever the relevant statutes are for handling secret information under which spies etc are prosecuted.

So while these are internal rules she may have violated, they are not the same as laws, and those laws apply equally to her predecessors, and therefore I feel justified in continuing to make the argument.

Re: FBI says it won't recommend charges in Clinton case

#55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"If you believe that previous people in the same position also had private servers and received classified information on them, why do you hold it against her?" Two wrongs don't make a right. Should failure to prosecute prior crimes mean that charges for the same crimes in the future be dropped? "Do you not believe that things are "overly" classified, and are liberally and retroactively labelled as such?" The regulat…

It seems it would be just as tyrannical to apply the law as it is written and not as it is intended. Here is a law intended to keep vital secrets out of the hands of enemies who might do harm to the national interest. And you want to apply it, broadly, to government officials who are trying to do their job. I don't think Rice or Powell intended to do any harm, or wanted to give any secrets out to any enemy. I also th…

(I'm not sure why I can reply now but not earlier. Anyway...)

"It seems it would be just as tyrannical to apply the law as it is written and not as it is intended."

I don't know if there is a difference here. The laws and regulations surrounding the handling, storage and transmission of classified information essentially boil down to: "Protect classified material from disclosure to unauthorized individuals, follow established procedures, and in the event you wish to stray from those keep in mind you're likely not authorized to make that final decision so consult with your security officer and ensure your bases are covered."

Let's assume that I, as a soldier or contractor, started using my private email server for work purposes that on occasion involved classified material. Maybe I didn't know what exactly was classified (or how high), but that doing so was definitely something I was advised against doing during my in-briefing and my annual security refresher training. Perhaps even explicitly told that such a thing was not authorized.

I am, at this point, negligent in my duty to protect said material and I have violated an agreement I have signed with the United States government. If one or more unauthorized parties (whether contractors I hired to set up the server or somebody else) accessed my server and saw that material, I have broken the law even if I didn't pull a Manning or Snowden or intentionally give material to a foreign intelligence service.

You can bet that my career would be in jeopardy and I would be put behind bars and subjected to "years of trouble". Hell, I would likely be held in custody during the investigation over concern of being a flight risk.

There's a reason why people who have had clearances are generally up in arms about this: mishandling and negligence is something they are repeatedly warned about and fearful of. To see the same rules and regulations that governed our activity (and in some cases really made our jobs difficult) so casually ignored and allowed to go without so much as a wrist-slap is infuriating.

It's not about a witch hunt. It's not a political thing. It's about seeing other people being treated differently in the eyes of the law. It's far from being the first time in America, but it's as disgusting and discouraging as any bit of fraud one hears about in the worst third-world countries, and for it to be given a free pass at such a high level (and be dismissed by so many for political reasons) I think indicates the poor state of health our democracy is in.

Re: FBI says it won't recommend charges in Clinton case

#56
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am personally pro-Hillary, and she may be basically an honest person trying to do her job, but even I can see clearly that what she did was wrong. It was serious and shouldn't be hand-waved like it wasn't a big deal, even by supporters of her. Listing all these violations was essentially proof that she did something wrong.

I'm with you on this. It shouldn't be hand-waved away. It's serious. I just wish we could find some appropriate action between hand-waving and federal indictment...

The usual action for lawyers, bankers or other professionals who were "careless", is to ban them from performing their jobs for a few years.

So perhaps she should be banned from holding a government job for a few years?

Re: FBI says it won't recommend charges in Clinton case

#57

No surprise here, the fix was in. Very odd conference though, he lists all manner of violations then says no prosecutor would take the case.

The people who are determined to believe the fix is in, will believe the fix is in. Because what could be harder to believe than that Hillary Clinton is basically an honest person trying to do her job?

You are deluding yourself. The hardest thing to believe is that she is an "honest person trying to do her job". All the flags and all the signs and all the bells and all the whistle are blowing and screeching at peek levels; yet here you are acting as though the fact that someone who cannot do anything without running afoul of laws and rule and controversy is somehow an honest person.

You are the equivalent of a person who everyone sees all the signs and signals and clear evidence that the person they love, blindly, is cheating on them and lying to them, yet simply cannot wrap their mind around reality and just keeps on making excuses and evades facing the truth.

It's quite amazing how basically a whole half of society has fallen into a kind of mental disorder where even as they see their spouse cheat on them right in front of their eyes, just turns their head away and voids looking at the reality they are seeing in order to suppress it. It's quite an amazing phenomenon. I guess it's base in fantasies of what she is and you imagine will come of her in spite of simply being played as a tool for her personal gain at he expense of sacrificing the most basic fundamentals of our government and society.

Re: FBI says it won't recommend charges in Clinton case

#58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the distinction is material.

Just to be clear, let's set up some terms: 1. Government server - whatever the gov sets up 2. Private server - a service like hotmail or gmail 3. Personal server - something on a box you hire someone to set up for you We agree that the violation is setting up a non #1 type server, but you are saying it matters if it was #2 or #3? If that is what you are saying, please elaborate on why you think so. (I don't see that…

Let's enhance said terms.

1. Government server - whatever the gov sets up. Chief attribute(s): security

2. Private sector email provider - a service like hotmail or gmail. Chief attribute(s): convenience and security.

3. Personal homebrew server - something on a box you hire someone to set up for you. Chief attribute(s): control and convenience.

A public servant who would use #2 for testing purposes so that they can execute the duties of their jobs is one thing. A public servant who would go to the lengths needed to secure #3, thereby placing their complete archive beyond the reach of the public but well within the reach of intruders, has in my view used their public office for private gain at the potential cost of national security. Their motives and judgment are entirely dubious.

Re: FBI says it won't recommend charges in Clinton case

#59
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not at all. I chose your response because you seemed more balanced than some of the other people who are way out on one side of the debate or the other. So I wondered why you, evidently relatively moderate in your view, fell where you did. In my eyes, the fact the key issue was the accepted actions of the predecessors. (I may have this wrong, though, based on another response I received in this thread, but that respo…

I fail to see where s/he said they were okay with the predecessors actions. You appear to be making a huge assumption. S/he said what she did was wrong and nothing about predecessors. I would make the assumption that s/he believes the predecessors were wrong too (assuming they did the exact same thing) and not assume that this has something to do with subject of this instance.

Yeah, I guess that's right. All the other responses to this thread are moving in the same direction. I was also inferring something from the statement.

I don't see that anything was "hand waved" other than it stopped short of prosecution. So, to my ears, that is what he was espousing.

I guess I would expect something specific:

1. Yes, prosecute the previous people as well!

2. Ah, I see. Well I don't believe all SoS since the invention of email should be prosecuted, so in order to be fair, I guess I don't believe she should be as well.

3. I don't believe it was as bad

4. I don't know?

But that is why the question was asked.

Re: FBI says it won't recommend charges in Clinton case

#60
post #23

HN Discussion of actual FBI statement: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12037042

That thread has been flagged, despite being clearly a reputable source and in scope for 'hacker news'. There seems to be a cabal of down-voters to take politically undesirable stories off the HN homepage. For instance, a while ago there was a story called 'The Myth of the Lone Wolf Terrorist.' I read it, then when I clicked back to HN to look at the comments, there was no sign of it.

Happens far too commonly. I'll see a great link in the RSS feed and come to look for discussion about it after reading, but the article will have been removed. I've learned to search site:ycombinator.com with the article's title in order to track it down and see if there was any discussion before it was binned.
Post reply on HN