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The employees shut inside coffins

bbc.com

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Re: The employees shut inside coffins

#51

Post by wyager »

paulojreis wrote: post #11
jagermo wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

whenever I read an article like this, I am so glad for the German labor laws. They might make it harder for employers, but they make it possible to work AND have a decent live.

In Portugal, we have some "theoretically" restrictive labor laws, supposedly very protective towards the employee. Still, everyday you'll hear about someone being told that he/she should feel lucky to even have a job, let alone a salary (because, yes, unpaid stuff is also common). My point being: labor laws are fundamental, but they don't trump a) on one hand, a bad economical situation; and b) on the other hand, a d…

Labor scarcity is usually more important than labor laws for quality of employment.

Re: The employees shut inside coffins

#53

Post by hammock »

luso_brazilian wrote: post #3

From the article: > In a large room in a nondescript modern office block in Seoul, staff from a recruitment company are staging their own funerals. Dressed in white robes, they sit at desks and write final letters to their loved ones. Tearful sniffling becomes open weeping, barely stifled by the copious use of tissues. > The macabre ritual is a bonding exercise designed to teach them to value life. Before they get in…

Imagining how much worse things could be is an effective stoic technique often called negative visualization. Many HN readers probably practice it. Whether or not it's a good idea to use it to extrinsically motivate employees is another question..

Re: The employees shut inside coffins

#54

Post by quietplatypus »

eva1984 wrote: post #27
luso_brazilian wrote: post #3

From the article: > In a large room in a nondescript modern office block in Seoul, staff from a recruitment company are staging their own funerals. Dressed in white robes, they sit at desks and write final letters to their loved ones. Tearful sniffling becomes open weeping, barely stifled by the copious use of tissues. > The macabre ritual is a bonding exercise designed to teach them to value life. Before they get in…

I think you misread this from beginning. As someone from eastern asian background, this feels not like some shady play that employer forces people into, rather I think it is close to a what is a catharsis or some sort of confession in western countries. The belief system of Sinosphere is built on ancestor worship. Every year, family gather together and goes to ancestor's tomb, do some cleaning and present offering to…

Even 'catharsis' as a Western idea isn't actually that helpful in practice. For example, taking out your anger and feeling 'cathartic' is known to make your emotional problems worse, not better, because you've given it a physical outlet that affects everyone around you.

This is totally a cult-worshipping style setup where the name of the game isn't employee health but ever increasing amounts of company loyalty. Notice how one of the participants was quoted as wanting to "bring more passion" to their work. People who need this treatment need a bigger life change than some theatrics plus some what is most likely unenthusiastic if not totally coerced admission that the bullshit helped.

Finally, don't bring "eastern asian background" into this. You should be able to argue for or against something without using your background to appeal to idiots and racists.

Re: The employees shut inside coffins

#55

Post by nicolas_t »

quietplatypus wrote: post #54
eva1984 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you misread this from beginning. As someone from eastern asian background, this feels not like some shady play that employer forces people into, rather I think it is close to a what is a catharsis or some sort of confession in western countries. The belief system of Sinosphere is built on ancestor worship. Every year, family gather together and goes to ancestor's tomb, do some cleaning and present offering to…

Even 'catharsis' as a Western idea isn't actually that helpful in practice. For example, taking out your anger and feeling 'cathartic' is known to make your emotional problems worse, not better, because you've given it a physical outlet that affects everyone around you. This is totally a cult-worshipping style setup where the name of the game isn't employee health but ever increasing amounts of company loyalty. Notic…

Bringing his eastern asian background isn't appealing to racists. There are differences between cultures and educations and they are not due to differences between races (ie an adopted kid from Korea raised in Europe will have the same culture as his family and not the culture of his origins).

Taking differences of culture into account when talking about practices in different countries make perfect sense. If there were no differences, then the "strange behaviors" we see reported would not baffle us and there wouldn't be any need for such an article. So, I think that the fact that eva1984 mentioned his background let's us know that by having a shared culture he can give us insights into what's happening that we don't necessarily have. Even if we don't agree with the practice, it's interesting to see how it's perceived there.

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That said, I do agree with you in that overly paternalistic employers and a definition of life centered around the company (leading to overtime, obligatory parties with the company, etc..) as done in Japan and Korea is often not very good for employees mental health and is probably one of the reason for the increased rate of suicide.

Some people are realizing this (in Japan at least). A bit more than 10 years ago I taught English part time on weekends to retired people in Japan and one of the thing that stuck with me is how many of the men regretted that they hadn't taken more time to enjoy life and do things they want before retiring. I had that discussion with them as I was starting a seishain position in a Japanese company and was surprised by the amount of Sabisu Zangyo (unpaid over time) and the time spent on company dinners etc... They were warning me to be careful and not let myself eaten by the company life.

Re: The employees shut inside coffins

#57

Post by CaptSpify »

Nokinside wrote: post #16
comboy wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's South Korea. I don't know why are you assuming they don't get a good wage or have interesting personal lives. Some may work longer hours, but it's really not unheard of in our culture. It's just a way to get something of your head and accept the inevitable. The culture is different, so I doubt it could ever work here, but given how many upvotes any story related to depression or suicide gets on HN, SV could prob…

Korean and Japanese group actives and social organization always weirds me out. I just can't relate and it feels totally alien. I understand that most of it comes from totally different perspective. Somebody tried to explain to me that East Asians "roleplay" their parts social hierarchies. It's the job of the boss to patronize and it's the job of the workers to play their role. Officially everything is strict and pro…

That actually sounds a lot like many US offices. Many bosses don't care that their employee browses FaceBook all day at work, they just pretend to care, as long as the work gets done.

Re: The employees shut inside coffins

#58

Post by hitekker »

quietplatypus wrote: post #54
eva1984 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you misread this from beginning. As someone from eastern asian background, this feels not like some shady play that employer forces people into, rather I think it is close to a what is a catharsis or some sort of confession in western countries. The belief system of Sinosphere is built on ancestor worship. Every year, family gather together and goes to ancestor's tomb, do some cleaning and present offering to…

Even 'catharsis' as a Western idea isn't actually that helpful in practice. For example, taking out your anger and feeling 'cathartic' is known to make your emotional problems worse, not better, because you've given it a physical outlet that affects everyone around you. This is totally a cult-worshipping style setup where the name of the game isn't employee health but ever increasing amounts of company loyalty. Notic…

> Finally, don't bring "eastern asian background" into this. You should be able to argue for or against something without using your background to appeal to idiots and racists.

This x 10. There is being open-minded and there is letting your brains fall out. You can be culturally sensitive, but that should stop when you see victims being stamped upon by a large firm boot, slowly and quietly into the dirt.

Re: The employees shut inside coffins

#59

Post by Freak_NL »

cjslep wrote: post #23
comboy wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's South Korea. I don't know why are you assuming they don't get a good wage or have interesting personal lives. Some may work longer hours, but it's really not unheard of in our culture. It's just a way to get something of your head and accept the inevitable. The culture is different, so I doubt it could ever work here, but given how many upvotes any story related to depression or suicide gets on HN, SV could prob…

I am ending a 2-week work week/vacation week in Seoul. My first time here. The culture is definitely different. The glimpse I have gotten into work life is that it is industrious and punctual (for a white collar job), and long hours for a more manual job. But at night people seem to get along pretty well with coworkers or friends and go out. Even on a Monday night I stumbled into a Korean BBQ joint with mostly-drunke…

Going out for food and drinks with co-workers is indeed a way to relieve stress and socialize; and it is indeed a place where the hierarchy is (seemingly and within certain bounds) relaxed a little. The shadow side in South Korea (and Japan) is that these outings are to some extent implicitly mandatory. It is a part of their traditional business culture, and during the work week you hardly spend any hours at leisure at home. This pattern is often criticized for its detrimental effect on family life and raising children; or even starting a relationship (in Japan in particular).

Might not all be so bad if your wife is a bad cook though. Korean BBQ is delicious.

Re: The employees shut inside coffins

#60

Post by drzaiusapelord »

Stuff like this is why I welcome the upcoming automation/AI/robot revolution. Humans just don't handle stress well. We're a mess when things go wrong or we feel slighted or feel stuck or whatever. Its incredible how delicate we are and how office work, which was promised to be a pleasant alternative to factory/farming work, is just as bad, if not worse than the alternatives from a stress perspective.

There's something terribly unhealthy about being stuck in an office all day. The risk/reward mechanism is screwy (do an amazing job, get the same salary as doing a lackluster job), we don't move enough, don't get enough sunlight, and it brings out the worst of people as getting ahead usually means playing a mean and dishonest game of politics against your coworkers.

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