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The limited value of a computer science education

nathanmarz.com

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Re: The limited value of a computer science education

#51

Post by elliotec »

capote wrote: post #46
ryanong wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to say school wasn't useful to you but all of these things could also be learned on the job. (As that is where I learned them)

That's true, and I completely understand, but it's besides my point. My point is to implore people to stop looking at a CS degree as just a means to get a job. If you look at it that way, of course you're not going to find 100% value in it. Getting a job is simply not what a CS degree is for. It was never declared to be for this purpose—nobody claims it's for this purpose (except maybe some schools for marketing purp…

So what is the point then?

Re: The limited value of a computer science education

#53

Post by j45 »

capote wrote: post #34

Post number 7,819,394 talking about how useful or not useful a CS degree is to a programming job. Here are some lessons I learned by going to school that I find incredibly useful: 1. How to shut up and get some work done, even if I don't see the point to it. 2. How to shut up and get some work done, even if it isn't directly applicable or valuable to a job or something I want in the future. 3. How to take feedback an…

People without CS are miss out, and also, some CS programs come up short: Learning soft skills are as important as any technical chops. Learning how to learn and realize you're never really done learning how to solve problems.

This is one of the reason some self-taught people often have more people skills than those who self-select to hide behind a keyboard most of their university years instead of getting out there, becoming more well rounded, and through it solving problems.

The ability to work in a group as you've mentioned is a critical and transferrable life skill that many people simply don't grasp. If you can't solve university group problems, guess what kind of co-workers you'll be stuck with in my 20's.

Having some structure in the start is important and valuable especially for those who don't have the discipline to do things that need to be done and instead jump from one shiny toy or problem to the next.

At the end of the day it's not just what your education (or lack of education) makes of you, but what you make of your ability to learn every day. Discipline is the master skill that most people at any age in or out of school in our 20's are missing.

Re: The limited value of a computer science education

#54

Post by catmanjan »

capote wrote: post #46
ryanong wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to say school wasn't useful to you but all of these things could also be learned on the job. (As that is where I learned them)

That's true, and I completely understand, but it's besides my point. My point is to implore people to stop looking at a CS degree as just a means to get a job. If you look at it that way, of course you're not going to find 100% value in it. Getting a job is simply not what a CS degree is for. It was never declared to be for this purpose—nobody claims it's for this purpose (except maybe some schools for marketing purp…

Most parents insist on kids going to uni specifically to get a job. If you can get the same knowledge for free (assuming you have to pay for uni), then what's the value?

Re: The limited value of a computer science education

#55

Post by capote »

elliotec wrote: post #50
capote wrote: post #34

Post number 7,819,394 talking about how useful or not useful a CS degree is to a programming job. Here are some lessons I learned by going to school that I find incredibly useful: 1. How to shut up and get some work done, even if I don't see the point to it. 2. How to shut up and get some work done, even if it isn't directly applicable or valuable to a job or something I want in the future. 3. How to take feedback an…

These are about going to school , though, not getting a CS degree. And 100% of these things could, and probably should, be learned in the real world and not through paying tens of thousands of dollars under the guise of education. I did not go to school for a CS degree, and that has not hampered me in any way when searching for a job in software. All I learned in college was how to game the system of the institution…

> that institutions like that are a societal racket and waste of time and money.

This is completely wrong. Universities are tremendously useful and do many great things for society and humanity. I'm not going to provide evidence because I think that any reasonable person will agree with me.

Re: The limited value of a computer science education

#56

Post by p4wnc6 »

gigq wrote: post #23
justinhj wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that means you're heavily biased against programmers that may be very capable and successful but don't work on open source projects. That reduces the catchment size considerably.

I also agree with the article author to give them a take home project to work on. Just saying that a computer science degree and a 10 min chalk board test are a pretty terrible way to make new hires.

How long of a take-home? In my current job search, I think I've finally hit my limit of overly burdensome take-home exams that significantly disrupt the childcare and exercise routines that I depend on. I think any take home that takes more than 2 hours of my time should require the company to compensate me at a fair hourly rate for completing the test for them, otherwise, given how many companies do not place this asymmetric burden on candidates, it's just not worth it.

I also think many of the same biases and inefficiencies that haunt terrible whiteboard hazing interviews still apply to take-home tests. If you say something like, "write this as if it's going into production" it's a disaster -- whatever qualifies as good enough for production is a subjective opinion that varies from organization to organization -- and often varies considerably within an organization too.

A great programmer pressed for time might slap something together and add some notes in a write-up about the extensively different way they would work on it if they were being paid a wage, given quiet working conditions, and tasked with it in the regular setting of a job. And would likely get rejected, despite being a great programmer.

Meanwhile, a candidate coming from some situation without hardly any time constraints, perhaps taking time off between jobs or during a university break if still in school, might spend 20 hours on something that should only take 4 hours, polish the entire thing, write a full test suite, and implement extra features. They might be more likely to be hired even if they are an inferior programmer, simply because they had access to significantly more free personal time to fit it in.

It can even be prohibitively hard just fitting in round after round of technical screens and 1-hour phone calls that probe your experience or ask you to solve short form problems, especially if you're interviewing with many places and they all want you to do that.

Making it take-home sounds better in theory, but there still are a ton of failure modes that people don't adequately account for.

Re: The limited value of a computer science education

#57

Post by capote »

elliotec wrote: post #51
capote wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's true, and I completely understand, but it's besides my point. My point is to implore people to stop looking at a CS degree as just a means to get a job. If you look at it that way, of course you're not going to find 100% value in it. Getting a job is simply not what a CS degree is for. It was never declared to be for this purpose—nobody claims it's for this purpose (except maybe some schools for marketing purp…

So what is the point then?

If you can't see the point, then maybe university isn't for you. I'm not going to write an essay on what point I saw in school because I don't have time or interest.

The point is that I saw value in it. I liked learning about computer science. Why can't people stop shitting on this concept?

Re: The limited value of a computer science education

#58

Post by School-Cotton »

qudat wrote: post #26
School-Cotton wrote: post #17

Doing well in a STEM degree like CS or Math is valuable for two reasons: (1) it usually, but not always, implies that the candidate has at least some coding knowledge; and, (2) [most important] it is a good proxy for logical/mathematical intelligence. As long as IQ tests for employment remain a legal grey area, employers will continue using STEM degrees as a filter. The claim that (2) is the most important is anecdot…

That sounds like a round-about way to train, prepare someone for a profession. The CS program is an artifact of how slow universities are to adapt to the needs of a growing industry. I would much rather see software development slip into an apprenticeship program rather than rigged up to a program that was never intended to train engineers.

Well, the CS program at most "normal" (non-elite) schools is already pretty practical and engineering-focused, AFAICT.

Re: The limited value of a computer science education

#59

Post by Ologn »

If you are not a DBA and did not get a BSCS, ask yourself this question - when people speak of relational databases - what is a relation? Then look up the answer, which is rather simple (don't reply with it here, unless you rot13 it or something). Maybe ask engineers with a few years experience. Were they right?

Where does the concept of regular expressions come from? Can you explain why you can't use regular expressions as an all-purpose HTML parser?

I took 1 1/2 semesters on critical sections, race conditions and such. I deal with these problems all the time, and have seen much code where people either never learned about it, or didn't learn it properly.

I had the idea once to hash a short list of small numbers as a Goedel number. Looking around I see the idea was not original (in other places I use triangular numbers etc.) I would never have known about those without CS.

Yes you have to keep learning more. It is a good foundation to start from though.

Re: The limited value of a computer science education

#60

Post by InclinedPlane »

capote wrote: post #34

Post number 7,819,394 talking about how useful or not useful a CS degree is to a programming job. Here are some lessons I learned by going to school that I find incredibly useful: 1. How to shut up and get some work done, even if I don't see the point to it. 2. How to shut up and get some work done, even if it isn't directly applicable or valuable to a job or something I want in the future. 3. How to take feedback an…

I have a degree in Mathematics, I think my educational experience has made me a better developer than if I'd have pursued a pure CS degree alone. Does that mean that I think everyone who wants to develop software should get a math degree? Not even a little bit. But I also don't think they should pursue a CS degree either. In the end the answer is "it's complicated, and there isn't one good answer yet", but we don't get from where we are now to a better state by pretending nothing is wrong with the status quo.

Moreover, I question whether or not each of your seven points are worth about $10k each, because a lot of students are paying that much.

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