3 shirts, 4 pairs of trousers, meet Japans hardcore minimalists • Hacker News Board

Re: 3 shirts, 4 pairs of trousers, meet Japans hardcore minimalists

#51

Post by sbardle » Mon, Jun 20, 2016, 9:20 AM UTC

DiabloD3 wrote: post #45

sbardle wrote: post #24

The West is following Japan in so many ways, I suppose because they had their financial crisis before us. Herbivore men, minimalist living, collapsing fertility rates, we are turning Japanese.

Yes, and the irony is, that is what destroyed Japanese culture. The only part they got right was getting rid of the items that don't serve you. The part they got wrong was enforcing the behaviors that don't serve you. No true man (yes yes, no true scotsman argument, I'm aware of the fallacy, just stick with me on this) is served by being a "herbivore" or whatever term Japan uses for their men. If you look at producti…

As I understand it, the "herbivore" man is rejecting the "carnivore" existence of the Japanese male executive. So he is not working every hour of the day, he is just getting by. But you are right, they are not focusing on "self improvement", rather just withdrawing from society.

Re: 3 shirts, 4 pairs of trousers, meet Japans hardcore minimalists

#52

Post by dcacaac » Mon, Jun 20, 2016, 9:23 AM UTC

DiabloD3 wrote: post #45

sbardle wrote: post #24

The West is following Japan in so many ways, I suppose because they had their financial crisis before us. Herbivore men, minimalist living, collapsing fertility rates, we are turning Japanese.

Yes, and the irony is, that is what destroyed Japanese culture. The only part they got right was getting rid of the items that don't serve you. The part they got wrong was enforcing the behaviors that don't serve you. No true man (yes yes, no true scotsman argument, I'm aware of the fallacy, just stick with me on this) is served by being a "herbivore" or whatever term Japan uses for their men. If you look at producti…

I agree about the pitfalls of a work-obsessed culture, but your tangential speculation about meat, women, and causes of suicide in Japan seem comically simplistic and honestly prejudiced.

Re: 3 shirts, 4 pairs of trousers, meet Japans hardcore minimalists

#53

Post by itazula » Mon, Jun 20, 2016, 9:23 AM UTC

struct wrote: post #13

As much as I like the idea of living with only a few possessions, it strikes me as a constant struggle: where do you put the 50 pack of envelopes you had to buy to send one letter? Are scissors for opening packaging included in his possessions? Nail trimmers? Toiletries? A formal pair of shoes? Do you have to hire all this stuff when you need it, or just keep in a drawer out of sight? And this is what I didn't get ab…

Reminds me of the days I made my own envelopes -- with a piece of paper, a few folds, and glue.

Re: 3 shirts, 4 pairs of trousers, meet Japans hardcore minimalists

#54

Post by loxs » Mon, Jun 20, 2016, 9:26 AM UTC

dcacaac wrote: post #44

I am not really a minimalist intentionally, but I'd guess that at least by amount spent I rank near the very bottom of HN posters. Over the last 3 years I have averaged about $300-400 USD per month, which includes rent and a yearly visa. I don't own a phone and I have no air conditioning, hot water, television, etc. I bike or walk everywhere -- no car or moto. I do own a computer and a 12$ per month internet connecti…

What country is this in? Your budged is more than or maybe comparable to most people's budget in my home country - Bulgaria. And they certainly don't get to sacrifice hot water and phone.

Please note that I'm not saying this in order to mock you. I'm genuinely interested (and practice to some extent, though nowhere close to you) in minimalist living and saving money.

Re: 3 shirts, 4 pairs of trousers, meet Japans hardcore minimalists

#55

Post by jacquesm » Mon, Jun 20, 2016, 9:33 AM UTC

MAGZine wrote: post #22

jacquesm wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What a luxury position to take. So you really can't be a minimalist unless you're wealthy enough to own a whole bunch of stuff but don't. Poor poor people, they can't even be minimalists. > It is like saying couples with no access to birth control automatically love children. That's like saying that couples without access to birth control can't love their children because they can't make a conscious choice. But guess…

I'll take a gander at drawing the distinction. Minimalism as an aesthetic is certainly luxurious. It implies that it was well thought out and contains only the necessary elements for a high-standard of living. It doesn't necessarily require you to be very wealthy, it just requires you to own less stuff than you could otherwise. Living with the only pair of clothes that are on your back could indeed be minimalist, tho…

No, Minimalism is a fad cooked up by people who were all-out consumers until they realized they didn't need all that crap who now have found permission from their guru (cited in the article) to get rid of their crap.

Aka: common sense.

Real minimalism is the life of a monk, and is not generally something compatible with functioning in society, and even monks live in places that take care of their needs by offloading some of their burdens on others.

A friend of mine - who is a declared minimalist - always wants to borrow my stuff (especially tools), go figure.

Re: 3 shirts, 4 pairs of trousers, meet Japans hardcore minimalists

#56

Post by Camillo » Mon, Jun 20, 2016, 9:35 AM UTC

mikekchar wrote: post #28

hellofunk wrote: post #5

If I had a choice, I'd prefer 4 shirts and 3 pairs of trousers.

It sounds strange, but I was actually thinking, "What the heck is he doing with 4 pairs of trousers"? I suppose 2 pairs for work and 2 for relaxing if he changes at the end of the day... But then why only 3 shirts? I wonder if this article got slashed to the minimum by the editor because I'm actually really intrigued by what things he finds essential and why. But there is nothing in the article other than to assert t…

It's not strange, I was thinking that too. Trousers basically don't get dirty from being on your body, all the dirt comes from outside. I can wear the same pair of trousers for weeks before I need to wash them. Shirts, though, may last as little as two or three days if it's hot and wet outside. And summer in Japan is that way.

I call shenanigans.

Re: 3 shirts, 4 pairs of trousers, meet Japans hardcore minimalists

#57

Post by maga » Mon, Jun 20, 2016, 9:36 AM UTC

As a tech nomad, minimalism wasn't quite optional in my case, and it's really not that hard to get rid of stuff if you put your mind into it.

What I have problem minimizing is the amount of gadgetry. I use a phablet for phone and tablet tasks, and a notebook as a workstation which is connected to extra monitors, storage and such when in an office. While it may not sound as much, I think I could get away with less. If someone was to release a tablet comparable to Surface 4 Pro but smaller and with Thunderbolt (i.e. supporting external graphics) I'd ditch my whole setup in a heartbeat.

Re: 3 shirts, 4 pairs of trousers, meet Japans hardcore minimalists

#58

Post by dagw » Mon, Jun 20, 2016, 9:42 AM UTC

struct wrote: post #13

As much as I like the idea of living with only a few possessions, it strikes me as a constant struggle: where do you put the 50 pack of envelopes you had to buy to send one letter? Are scissors for opening packaging included in his possessions? Nail trimmers? Toiletries? A formal pair of shoes? Do you have to hire all this stuff when you need it, or just keep in a drawer out of sight? And this is what I didn't get ab…

where do you put the 50 pack of envelopes you had to buy to send one letter?

The garbage? Sure it's wasteful, but if true minimalism brings you happiness then it might be worth it.

Re: 3 shirts, 4 pairs of trousers, meet Japans hardcore minimalists

#59

Post by DiabloD3 » Mon, Jun 20, 2016, 9:48 AM UTC

pikachu_is_cool wrote: post #48

DiabloD3 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, and the irony is, that is what destroyed Japanese culture. The only part they got right was getting rid of the items that don't serve you. The part they got wrong was enforcing the behaviors that don't serve you. No true man (yes yes, no true scotsman argument, I'm aware of the fallacy, just stick with me on this) is served by being a "herbivore" or whatever term Japan uses for their men. If you look at producti…

Just curious, have you been to Japan? What is it like? I heard it's pretty awesome to visit, but not to live (presumably for same the reasons you've outlined)

As much of a large fan of certain aspects of Japanese culture, I've never really wanted to visit; however, quite a few people I know have visited, and have all said the same thing: awesome to visit, but they wouldn't want to live there.

Re: 3 shirts, 4 pairs of trousers, meet Japans hardcore minimalists

#60

Post by DiabloD3 » Mon, Jun 20, 2016, 9:50 AM UTC

sbardle wrote: post #51

DiabloD3 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, and the irony is, that is what destroyed Japanese culture. The only part they got right was getting rid of the items that don't serve you. The part they got wrong was enforcing the behaviors that don't serve you. No true man (yes yes, no true scotsman argument, I'm aware of the fallacy, just stick with me on this) is served by being a "herbivore" or whatever term Japan uses for their men. If you look at producti…

As I understand it, the "herbivore" man is rejecting the "carnivore" existence of the Japanese male executive. So he is not working every hour of the day, he is just getting by. But you are right, they are not focusing on "self improvement", rather just withdrawing from society.

Except, the irony, is Japanese men work harder than they ever have, yet most consider themselves/are considered by others herbivore.

Japan still thinks it is honorable to literally die at your desk and be discovered by your coworkers. That aspect of culture is very foreign to me, and I do not understand it.