Are women exiting engineering because men get the challenging assignments? • Hacker News Board

Re: Are women exiting engineering because men get the challenging assignments?

#51

Post by GrumpyYoungMan » Fri, Jun 17, 2016, 5:13 PM UTC

MattGrommes wrote: post #12

I think using the word 'fun' in this title is demeaning and misleading. Women aren't looking for fun, they're looking for meaningful, interesting work and are being denied it. (Obviously not all women, etc. etc.) I know a very talented woman with more experience and talent than her teammates who constantly deals with the interesting work being given to men instead of her. In meetings men look to the other men for opi…

>the answer shouldn't be to tell women to be bigger blowhards than the men in order to get to do interesting stuff

Interesting statement but what's the justification for that and what precisely is the action to be taken?

People who aren't willing to stand up for themselves will be dominated by those who are, regardless of gender. The biggest "blowhard" (to use your term) wins, at work, at school, at home, and at every other social interaction. That's basic social dynamics.

Note that the article implicitly acknowledges this: “'In situations like this, [Coffman] suggests, 'you need to be your own best advocate and aggressively seek out the most interesting and challenging projects. If your male peers try to task you with menial work, you can tell them 'no'. They're your peers, not your bosses.'”

Re: Are women exiting engineering because men get the challenging assignments?

#52

Post by mandeepj » Fri, Jun 17, 2016, 5:14 PM UTC

I am sharing this experience from my job during 2008. We tried to hire our first female engineer. She cleared all the interviews. We gave her a tour of our company and showed her future work location. At the end, she listed down few reasons and declined to join. I don't remember all the reasons she mentioned. Would you like to know what I remember? As I cannot forget this one. She said one of the reasons she can't join is - there is no other female. I wish someone told her - "you start from somewhere".

Re: Are women exiting engineering because men get the challenging assignments?

#53

Post by pasbesoin » Fri, Jun 17, 2016, 5:14 PM UTC

theseatoms wrote: post #31

MattGrommes wrote: post #12

I think using the word 'fun' in this title is demeaning and misleading. Women aren't looking for fun, they're looking for meaningful, interesting work and are being denied it. (Obviously not all women, etc. etc.) I know a very talented woman with more experience and talent than her teammates who constantly deals with the interesting work being given to men instead of her. In meetings men look to the other men for opi…

> Partly it's because corporate environments prefer bluster to quieter expertise but the answer shouldn't be to tell women to be bigger blowhards than the men in order to get to do interesting stuff. This often seems like a better dimension on which to analyze these "gender in the workplace" issues. That is, these issues arise more often due to the typical characteristics and behaviors that members of each gender dis…

It also affects quieter, sometimes more effective men.

"Speak up!"

It not infrequently reduces to physical posturing. And volume escalation. I kid you not.

(Not to mention, that these loud and aggressive types often make particularly open-space workplaces much greater challenges to the concentration of... this quiet, effective type (me), for one.)

Why does engineering increasingly suck in the U.S. (excluding some of the Silicon Valley et al. "gifted" enclaves)? Because type-A assholes have taken over U.S. management. And they shit all over anyone who isn't like them and isn't the bully they are.

Next up: Do they succeed on the international scene? Or do different cultures shut them down? Does e.g. a Shenzhen -- where I just got my latest and greatest fitness tracker for $23 -- manage to give them a big "fuck you" while combining extant tech into new and compelling products?

Re: Are women exiting engineering because men get the challenging assignments?

#54

Post by RodericDay » Fri, Jun 17, 2016, 5:14 PM UTC

socrates1998 wrote: post #47

I think whenever you are a "minority" in anything you run the risk of being felt left out. If your group comprises only 20% of something, then it is always going to be an issue. The problem with the gender gap is that it will never go away. Prejudice against a race, ethic group, or religion is a mistake. People are generally people and we have more in common than we don't. And as time goes on, I think you will see th…

Lawyers and Doctors seem to be faring better than Programmers.

"Because they wanted/didn't want to do it" isn't where the trail of inquiry ends, btw.

Re: Are women exiting engineering because men get the challenging assignments?

#55

Post by MattGrommes » Fri, Jun 17, 2016, 5:15 PM UTC

kilroy123 wrote: post #40

heartbreak wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The example seems like a problem that quiet people have. Not all women are quiet, and not all quiet people are women.

Was thinking the same. Lot's of introverted and shy men, deal with the same issues as well.

As an introvert myself, I agree that there is a bias against quieter people but I think these are issues that some people _also_ face, not that it's one issue instead of the other.

Re: Are women exiting engineering because men get the challenging assignments?

#56

Post by nickparker » Fri, Jun 17, 2016, 5:15 PM UTC

kogepathic wrote: post #32

My company has desperately tried to hire female candidates into our engineering team, which is currently all male. From the dozens of applications that we got for the position, only about 5% were female. After interviewing them, they either declined the position, or weren't able to complete our take home challenge (nothing against these women, we have lots of guys fail it too!) So, yeah, I'd love to have some females…

How does the top of your funnel work?

I don't know how your organization does it, but the three worst companies I've worked in diversity-wise all recruited about the same way: Word of mouth and some weak outreach through the easiest channels ie craigslist and a careers page on their own poorly trafficked site.

If your organization does on-campus recruiting, Society of Women Engineers and Women in Computing have well organized chapters at most tech schools, and simply telling them about your recruitment events can have a huge positive impact.

I don't have much experience with this issue outside the academic world beyond its results at internships, but there might be similar options around for general recruitment.

Re: Are women exiting engineering because men get the challenging assignments?

#57

Post by sp332 » Fri, Jun 17, 2016, 5:15 PM UTC

rquantz wrote: post #25

buchanaf wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which also means not every study should be used to project its results over an entire population.

You're maybe non familiar with qualitative research methods? A study like this can be used to discover the kinds of challenges that women face in engineering work environments. It would be a mistake to try to make quantitative claims about these results, but no one is doing that here.

I agree with the first part of your comment, but the authors are making specific suggestions about changes to college programs.

Re: Are women exiting engineering because men get the challenging assignments?

#58

Post by curtis » Fri, Jun 17, 2016, 5:16 PM UTC

ffn wrote: post #39

Or it could be that tons of girls get sold into taking up the tech field at a young and impressionable age by presidential speeches, books telling them to "lean in", and articles like this that hint there is some conspiracy of men out there actively working to damage women and they are needed to right the wrong. Then, after spending 4+ years in college studying surface friction losses or CRDT applications without tom…

I feel like maybe you are overstating the case, but I gave you an upvote anyway, since I think there is a case to be made along those lines.

I upvoted the article as well, for similar reasons.

Re: Are women exiting engineering because men get the challenging assignments?

#59

Post by kogepathic » Fri, Jun 17, 2016, 5:16 PM UTC

MattGrommes wrote: post #49

kogepathic wrote: post #32

My company has desperately tried to hire female candidates into our engineering team, which is currently all male. From the dozens of applications that we got for the position, only about 5% were female. After interviewing them, they either declined the position, or weren't able to complete our take home challenge (nothing against these women, we have lots of guys fail it too!) So, yeah, I'd love to have some females…

I don't know where you are but there are bound to be multiple woman-focused tech groups in your area. I'd encourage you to reach out specifically to those groups. A lot of times when companies can't find candidates who aren't the same as the rest of the company it's because they only use the same networks and resources that got the other employees in the first place.

I'm in Germany.

If you're not in Berlin (which we are not) it's difficult to find female tech groups unless it's at a university.

Re: Are women exiting engineering because men get the challenging assignments?

#60

Post by gravypod » Fri, Jun 17, 2016, 5:17 PM UTC

oldmanjay wrote: post #38

MattGrommes wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a very common methodology and it's hard to do sociological studies any other way really. They can't follow subjects around with cameras or something without creating a fake environment.

That doesn't seem like an argument that the technique is valid

I agree with you. The grandparent of this post is commuting an appeal to nature fallacy.

Just because sociologists do it, doesn't necessarily mean it's the right thing to do.