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Computer Crash Wipes Out Years of Air Force Investigation Records

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Re: Computer Crash Wipes Out Years of Air Force Investigation Records

#51

Post by jMyles »

sverige wrote: post #29
RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #26

There has been too much recently of government agencies losing data due to "crashes" or "inadvertent" deletions. For example the IRS, state department, and now the Air Force. A really easy way to fix this is to make a law so that if government data such as this gets lost, then the cabinet level person responsible for overseeing the agency immediately loses their cabinet level position and is barred from further work…

Yeah, forgive me if I'm too cynical, but Hanlon's razor fails when this sort of thing involves criminal investigations of government employees. Edit: it also inspired a variation on an old joke about how the same word means different things to different people. For example, suppose the order goes out to "secure the data center." Marines report back, "We have destroyed the data center." Army reports, "We have killed e…

> Yeah, forgive me if I'm too cynical, but Hanlon's razor fails when this sort of thing involves criminal investigations of government employees.

I've had this thought before. Can you think of a general, defensible clause to add to Hanlon's razor to account for this?

Re: Computer Crash Wipes Out Years of Air Force Investigation Records

#52

Post by King-Aaron »

I recall an episode of the X-Files where they talked about a 'basement fire', this reminds me of that. When you hear about a high-level government department "losing" files, it's usually because they've had an office party around the paper shredder.

Or something along those lines.

Re: Computer Crash Wipes Out Years of Air Force Investigation Records

#53

Post by chipperyman573 »

King-Aaron wrote: post #52

I recall an episode of the X-Files where they talked about a 'basement fire', this reminds me of that. When you hear about a high-level government department "losing" files, it's usually because they've had an office party around the paper shredder. Or something along those lines.

>office party around the paper shredder

This phrase made me laugh, but I don't really understand what it means, can you explain please?

Re: Computer Crash Wipes Out Years of Air Force Investigation Records

#54

Post by eru »

toyg wrote: post #25
bsurmanski wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would consider it progress. The only data loss to Google that I was able to find was [0], where a single datacenter was hit by lightning 4 times in short succession, and 0.000001% of disk space in said datacenter was lost. And only because the lost data consisted of recent writes that had yet to be backed up. And only because the lightning affected the AUX power systems in a way that they have since committed to fi…

The problem is not just DR, but anything that can result in data loss. There was the one where they'd delete stuff you didn't mean to [1], the one where they got stuff back by the scruff of the neck [2]... i can't be arsed to look further back, but I'm pretty sure shit happened earlier as well (and I'm just looking at GMail). And of course there are tons of horror stories about accounts disabled or deleted for commer…

I don't get the problem with [2]? The tape worked exactly as intended.

Re: Computer Crash Wipes Out Years of Air Force Investigation Records

#55

Post by eru »

Johnny555 wrote: post #24
bsurmanski wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would consider it progress. The only data loss to Google that I was able to find was [0], where a single datacenter was hit by lightning 4 times in short succession, and 0.000001% of disk space in said datacenter was lost. And only because the lost data consisted of recent writes that had yet to be backed up. And only because the lightning affected the AUX power systems in a way that they have since committed to fi…

IMO, cloud storage is the most reliable way to store data, and Google the most reliable Does Google publish any durability numbers? Amazon claims 99.999999999% (11 9's) for S3 and Glacier (and considerably worse for EBS volumes). How does Google compare?

Don't have numbers here, but it's pretty good, and we regularly move the data around and check it. (Ie it's not just rotting on a hard disk somewhere.)

Re: Computer Crash Wipes Out Years of Air Force Investigation Records

#56

Post by King-Aaron »

chipperyman573 wrote: post #53
King-Aaron wrote: post #52

I recall an episode of the X-Files where they talked about a 'basement fire', this reminds me of that. When you hear about a high-level government department "losing" files, it's usually because they've had an office party around the paper shredder. Or something along those lines.

>office party around the paper shredder This phrase made me laugh, but I don't really understand what it means, can you explain please?

"frantically destroying documents" I suppose would be another way to frame it... But I seem to remember that was the wording on the show, or pretty close to it.

It made it sound like the staff were running around and being very energetic in their operation of the paper shredder.

Re: Computer Crash Wipes Out Years of Air Force Investigation Records

#57

Post by [deleted] »

pslam wrote: post #16
toyg wrote: post #9

The joys of IT. Back in the day, to wipe years of records you had to burn or shred tons of paper in multiple locations. Now you just crash one little system... Despite 20 years of Microsoft-induced crashes, clear best practices and yadda yadda, most organizations will still have a single backup system for any given data repository -- if they have one at all. And the answer when shit happens is "outsource! Go to the c…

> The joys of IT. Back in the day, to wipe years of records you had to burn or shred tons of paper in multiple locations. Now you just crash one little system. [...] most organizations will still have a single backup system for any given data repository -- if they have one at all. No, back in the day, you could still wipe years of records because most people only used a single filing cabinet with no duplication or of…

[deleted]

Re: Computer Crash Wipes Out Years of Air Force Investigation Records

#58

Post by icebraining »

droopyEyelids wrote: post #20
pslam wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The joys of IT. Back in the day, to wipe years of records you had to burn or shred tons of paper in multiple locations. Now you just crash one little system. [...] most organizations will still have a single backup system for any given data repository -- if they have one at all. No, back in the day, you could still wipe years of records because most people only used a single filing cabinet with no duplication or of…

Fire? Why be so bombastic. All it takes is one mis-applied label to permanently destroy records in a large enough filing system.

  Bernard: Shall I file it?
  Hacker:  Shall you file it? Shred it!
  Bernard: Shred it?
  Hacker:  No one must ever be able to find it again!
  Bernard: In that case, Minister, I think it's best I file it.
Yes, Minister - The Death List

Re: Computer Crash Wipes Out Years of Air Force Investigation Records

#59

Post by varjag »

RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #26

There has been too much recently of government agencies losing data due to "crashes" or "inadvertent" deletions. For example the IRS, state department, and now the Air Force. A really easy way to fix this is to make a law so that if government data such as this gets lost, then the cabinet level person responsible for overseeing the agency immediately loses their cabinet level position and is barred from further work…

All that would lead to is make any process change in the government impossible, domination of defensive document workflow a.k.a. CYA, and thorough lack of leadership.

Re: Computer Crash Wipes Out Years of Air Force Investigation Records

#60

Post by iamflimflam1 »

PakG1 wrote: post #44
heimatau wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This idea is too simplistic. Although I used to support it. I've changed my position from yours to 'retrained and demotion' position. Since people make mistakes, I think being 'barred from further work' is counter-productive and the government would lose out on many able and competent workers. Heck, this idea could also be exploited by lower-level workers due to not liking their higher-up bosses; i.e. a lower-level w…

Indeed, such ideas would create an atmosphere of fear and increase cover-ups, rather than solve problems. There needs to be a solution that acknowledges the inevitably of mistakes and still deals with the issue.

Exactly this. How many of us would be up in arms if developers were fired for making mistakes? You just need to look at all the stories around rm -rf...
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