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Salary Negotiation

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Re: Salary Negotiation

#51

Post by [deleted] »

mathattack wrote: post #25
swombat wrote: post #5

We're really trying to nail a good way to deal with salary negotiations when onboarding people, at GrantTree - one that gets out of this "gotcha" approach to salary. So far the best we've figured out is to be the first ones to name a number, and be super-transparent about how we arrived at that number. The reasoning is that "in a salary negotiation the first person to quote a number loses", so since we (as the employ…

I've struggled with this a lot. I used to believe in making it a negotiation. The more I've seen, I've switched to paying for the position. Unless hard negotiation is part of the job description, it shouldn't be rewarded. I've also found that rewarding hard negotiators pushes companies down the path of paying men more than women for the same job. If you can't stay in business without underpaying a lot of people, your…

[deleted]

Re: Salary Negotiation

#52

Post by TrickedOut »

swombat wrote: post #10
sillysaurus3 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Instead, we run a pay evaluation process internally, including feedback about the value of the role and the person from all the people who interviewed the candidate. We publish all that feedback, as well as the suggestion/reasoning of our pay trustees (a group of people who use that feedback to try to place the candidate on our pay scale) None of those factors are why someone is worth $X salary. You say I'm worth $X.…

No one is worth any intrinsic amount. The amount is relative to the work they do, the industry they're in, the state of the economy, how many other people can do that job, how many have actually applied, etc. Any salary formula is entirely arbitrary. We have a pay scale simply because it is a useful tool for conversation, not because it represents any sort of intrinsic property of the person being placed on the pay s…

Nice. Spoken like either 1. A trust fund kiddie with privileges to work for pleasure 2. An older person who purchased their family home before they started costing 3M$

Re: Salary Negotiation

#53

Post by etjossem »

billions wrote: post #42

Why are developers NOT paid proportional to output? A 5x developer should get paid more than a 2x dev but that doesn't seem to happen

10x engineer: a developer who incurs technical debt so fast he appears more productive than the ten developers tasked with cleaning his mess up. [1]

[1] http://10x.engineer

Re: Salary Negotiation

#54

Post by arielweisberg »

My observation is that salary negotiation has little to do with negotiation. The management side of the table is never thinking in terms of economics and has no idea what their BATNA is.

I think this comes from HR and leadership which can't quantify what the right balance is for comp vs their BATNA.

For engineers this is especially challenging because metrics are hard to come by and correlate with the $$$ going out the door.

Re: Salary Negotiation

#55

Post by joshuahutt »

swombat wrote: post #39
threatofrain wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see why paying people less would lead to an improvement in love, family, being a good person, respect, transparency, etc -- unless you're saying that due to pay difference vs market, you'll also expect less work out of them. And money is rarely the actual motivator. Often times, money is the mediator to the things that really motivate people, such as purchasing daycare and enrichment activities, splurging on…

> I don't see why paying people less would lead to an improvement in love, family, being a good person, respect, transparency, etc -- unless you're saying that due to pay difference vs market, you'll also expect less work out of them. There's definitely no necessary causal link here. We aim to pay enough that they won't leave because it's too little but not so much that they will stay just because of the salary is to…

> not so much that they will stay just because of the salary is too high.

I can imagine a case in which a sufficiently high salary could lead to someone staying in a position for which they have no passion.

Still, like you say, it's a delicate balance, and on either side you of not getting good work out of your people. On the low end, you just wouldn't be able to secure high-value candidates. On the high end, you might keep people who have no interest in their roles.

I do think the latter case is less likely, though.

Re: Salary Negotiation

#56

Post by brianwawok »

swombat wrote: post #15
brianwawok wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Importantly, we have no interest in trying to sucker someone into working with us if money is their primary motivation. Are you a charity doing good work with orphans? Or are you a business trying to make as much money for the investors as possible? If the latter is true, why wouldn't someone work for you with "money as the primary motivator" ? (This is not Rhetorical, I actually know nothing about your business. B…

Neither. We're a purposeful, for-profit, founder-owned[1] company. Just because we are for-profit doesn't mean profit is our only motivation. It's a false dichotomy to suggest that because you want to make money that must be your only driver. Our view of business is that, much like humans, it can achieve and balance multiple objectives. You want to make money: does that mean you want only that to the exclusion of or…

So why would I accept less money from you than my market rate, so that you, the founder, can make more money? At the end of the day there is 1 pie, why should I donate part of my pie to you?

Re: Salary Negotiation

#57

Post by jonknee »

vladimirralev wrote: post #47

This just seems like a walkthrough how to educate a shitty manager who got their "business-degree" from dilbert comic strips. The last thing a manager wants to do is to lowball a guy who's performance depends on his own good faith. If I have to explain to the manager why this is a bad idea and why he is putting me at disadvantage while keeping key information from me and using sleazy tactics he saw in the "boiler roo…

It turns out there are a lot more than 5 companies out there in the marketplace... And if you think you got a fair initial offer you almost certainly did not.

Re: Salary Negotiation

#58

Post by [deleted] »

abledon wrote: post #49
ohjeez wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most discussions about salary negotiation are about postponing the money discussion until we know there's a fit. But what do you do when you-as-applicant need to be sure you're not wasting your time (or theirs)? That is: I'm really senior in my field, with 25 years of experience, and for several years I've been commanding top dollar. (I'm worth it, too!) But often I start discussions with would-be employers (or clien…

Have you thought about lowering the hours worked per week? For instance, if they aren't willing to pay you a 40hr/week salary, would they be alright paying you less but you only work 25hr/week (putting in enough productivity in those hours to warrant paying such a high price for your services)

[deleted]

Re: Salary Negotiation

#59

Post by TrickzOnU »

swombat wrote: post #5

We're really trying to nail a good way to deal with salary negotiations when onboarding people, at GrantTree - one that gets out of this "gotcha" approach to salary. So far the best we've figured out is to be the first ones to name a number, and be super-transparent about how we arrived at that number. The reasoning is that "in a salary negotiation the first person to quote a number loses", so since we (as the employ…

""Instead, we run a pay evaluation process internally, including feedback about the value of the role and the person from all the people who interviewed the candidate. We publish all that feedback, as well as the suggestion/reasoning of our pay trustees (a group of people who use that feedback to try to place the candidate on our pay scale)""

Problem with this approach is that inevitably part of the formula is also "level" -- so you just converted one problem (negotiating $) to another (negotiating level.) That is when the real tricky people come in -- those who want a high level and just manage others, often adding no value (good managers add a lot of value, but if you tell people that the only way they can make more money is by being manager or senior managing level, then you force people who should not be managing into managing roles.)

Re: Salary Negotiation

#60

Post by herge »

abledon wrote: post #49
ohjeez wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most discussions about salary negotiation are about postponing the money discussion until we know there's a fit. But what do you do when you-as-applicant need to be sure you're not wasting your time (or theirs)? That is: I'm really senior in my field, with 25 years of experience, and for several years I've been commanding top dollar. (I'm worth it, too!) But often I start discussions with would-be employers (or clien…

Have you thought about lowering the hours worked per week? For instance, if they aren't willing to pay you a 40hr/week salary, would they be alright paying you less but you only work 25hr/week (putting in enough productivity in those hours to warrant paying such a high price for your services)

Or arguably, if you are close enough in the salary range, accept a 10% lower salary for 5 weeks of vacation.
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