Alienation Is Killing Americans and Japanese • Hacker News Board

Re: Alienation Is Killing Americans and Japanese

#51

Post by DanielBMarkham » Wed, Jun 01, 2016, 12:39 PM UTC

Morgawr wrote: post #47

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #19

I interact with dozens of people daily. I tell jokes, I listen to their feelings, I applaud their conquests, I mourn their losses. On the internet. You think any of those people are going to miss me if I'm gone. Kinda sad, really.

As somebody who's had a dear internet friend die, let me tell you that yes, we'd miss you if you're gone! I was (and still am) part of a tight community of people on IRC and one day we realized a guy in our group hadn't said anything for almost a month. He'd always been the quiet type of person who sometimes would go for a few days or even a week without saying anything, but it was really weird for us. These are all…

Yes. Exactly this.

If you're communicating with somebody on a regular basis in person, and they die? You mourn, you send flowers. Hell, you might even go to the funeral home, even if it was in another town.

If it's online? You can go weeks or months and be clueless. And then when you do find out, you feel like you were robbed of something. Something important.

Re: Alienation Is Killing Americans and Japanese

#52

Post by coldpie » Wed, Jun 01, 2016, 12:40 PM UTC

brightball wrote: post #35

A big part of this that's unpopular to discuss in current culture is people actively avoiding going to a church. Whether you actually donate and believe everything that is said isn't really a factor in whether or not you can show up every week, meet other people in your community, participate in events, be there for each other at during the hard times in life, have fun activities for your kids where you can meet othe…

I've thought about this a lot, and I agree with you. I'm a pretty devout Atheist (is that the right term?), but I do recognize the social role that churches play and I wish there was some similar secular organization that could fill that role. Or course there are hobby and special interest groups, but I can't think of just a general gathering where everyone is a regular and friendly like my church was growing up.

Re: Alienation Is Killing Americans and Japanese

#53

Post by brightball » Wed, Jun 01, 2016, 12:41 PM UTC

twoquestions wrote: post #48

brightball wrote: post #35

A big part of this that's unpopular to discuss in current culture is people actively avoiding going to a church. Whether you actually donate and believe everything that is said isn't really a factor in whether or not you can show up every week, meet other people in your community, participate in events, be there for each other at during the hard times in life, have fun activities for your kids where you can meet othe…

The problem with church is that it demands submission in exchange for community. Not only believe this way, but dress this way, eat this way, vote this way, and if you're in any way different you're as cut off as you would be if you stayed home, and if you're having hard times you must have done something to deserve it. I'm from Ohio so it may be different up here, but that's my experience.

Churches tend to be all shapes and sizes. The traditional ones are usually closer to what you're describing but there are many that are more low key to avoid exactly what you are describing.

Re: Alienation Is Killing Americans and Japanese

#54

Post by Sir_Cmpwn » Wed, Jun 01, 2016, 12:41 PM UTC

brightball wrote: post #35

A big part of this that's unpopular to discuss in current culture is people actively avoiding going to a church. Whether you actually donate and believe everything that is said isn't really a factor in whether or not you can show up every week, meet other people in your community, participate in events, be there for each other at during the hard times in life, have fun activities for your kids where you can meet othe…

Churches are definitely a great community resource, but I imagine that many people (myself included) don't want to be preached something we don't believe in every week even if it means losing out on those community benefits. I wonder if something else could be established, or even if such a thing as "athiest/agnostic churches" could be organized.

Re: Alienation Is Killing Americans and Japanese

#55

Post by zellyn » Wed, Jun 01, 2016, 12:42 PM UTC

brightball wrote: post #35

A big part of this that's unpopular to discuss in current culture is people actively avoiding going to a church. Whether you actually donate and believe everything that is said isn't really a factor in whether or not you can show up every week, meet other people in your community, participate in events, be there for each other at during the hard times in life, have fun activities for your kids where you can meet othe…

It's so difficult to find a church that (a) values community, and (b) hasn't made some kind of big, public decision against LGBTQ people. And that doesn't preach guilt and condemnation in a thousand overt or subtle ways…

Re: Alienation Is Killing Americans and Japanese

#56

Post by brightball » Wed, Jun 01, 2016, 12:43 PM UTC

zellyn wrote: post #55

brightball wrote: post #35

A big part of this that's unpopular to discuss in current culture is people actively avoiding going to a church. Whether you actually donate and believe everything that is said isn't really a factor in whether or not you can show up every week, meet other people in your community, participate in events, be there for each other at during the hard times in life, have fun activities for your kids where you can meet othe…

It's so difficult to find a church that (a) values community, and (b) hasn't made some kind of big, public decision against LGBTQ people. And that doesn't preach guilt and condemnation in a thousand overt or subtle ways…

Episcopal

Re: Alienation Is Killing Americans and Japanese

#57

Post by zellyn » Wed, Jun 01, 2016, 12:43 PM UTC

Sir_Cmpwn wrote: post #54

brightball wrote: post #35

A big part of this that's unpopular to discuss in current culture is people actively avoiding going to a church. Whether you actually donate and believe everything that is said isn't really a factor in whether or not you can show up every week, meet other people in your community, participate in events, be there for each other at during the hard times in life, have fun activities for your kids where you can meet othe…

Churches are definitely a great community resource, but I imagine that many people (myself included) don't want to be preached something we don't believe in every week even if it means losing out on those community benefits. I wonder if something else could be established, or even if such a thing as "athiest/agnostic churches" could be organized.

http://www.firstexistentialist.org/

Re: Alienation Is Killing Americans and Japanese

#58

Post by lmm » Wed, Jun 01, 2016, 12:44 PM UTC

minikites wrote: post #17

tristor wrote: post #15

Another part of this I think that people don't really talk about is increased social isolation as a direct cause of Internet addiction and the rise of social media and online gaming. There is a term for this concept in Japan 'hikikomori', but it's just as true in the US. As someone who recently turned 30, yet has remained single most of my life despite my other successes, I see it very clearly. I grew up along with t…

>remained single most of my life despite my other successes I think the media has a role to play here too, the idea that you need romantic love in order to be successful or complete is a toxic one. Edit: a lot of replies to my comment are misinterpreting what I'm saying as "romance is a new idea invented by the media" when all I said is that it's possible to have a complete and successful life without romance.

Interestingly that's a lot less the case in Japanese media IME. E.g. Honey and Clover concludes (spoilers) with Hagu deciding to pursue her art instead of a romantic relationship, which I can't imagine happening in a western movie or tv show.

Re: Alienation Is Killing Americans and Japanese

#59

Post by zellyn » Wed, Jun 01, 2016, 12:45 PM UTC

twoquestions wrote: post #48

brightball wrote: post #35

A big part of this that's unpopular to discuss in current culture is people actively avoiding going to a church. Whether you actually donate and believe everything that is said isn't really a factor in whether or not you can show up every week, meet other people in your community, participate in events, be there for each other at during the hard times in life, have fun activities for your kids where you can meet othe…

The problem with church is that it demands submission in exchange for community. Not only believe this way, but dress this way, eat this way, vote this way, and if you're in any way different you're as cut off as you would be if you stayed home, and if you're having hard times you must have done something to deserve it. I'm from Ohio so it may be different up here, but that's my experience.

"demands submission in exchange for community" - that's a fantastic way of phrasing it. I'll be using that in the future :-)

Re: Alienation Is Killing Americans and Japanese

#60

Post by lmm » Wed, Jun 01, 2016, 12:46 PM UTC

distances wrote: post #16

One kind of a record in Finland was a man deceased for six years before anyone noticed. He had already mummified in his bed when found. Even the landlord didn't ask after him, as the rent was automatically paid by social services for this whole time. There's also an English Wikipedia page of the case at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maunula_mummy .

I would hope to have the option of disconnecting like that if I wanted to. I don't know about this man's circumstances, but the story implies a level of privacy that I'd find really valuable.