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Google's Paris HQ raided in tax probe

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Re: Google's Paris HQ raided in tax probe

#51

Post by logicchains »

cmdkeen wrote: post #27
logicchains wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>while contributing nothing themselves They contribute a service, in this case a search engine that's miles ahead of its closest competitor, Bing. They don't "take" anything, they offer something that you're free not to use. Unlike nation states, which are happy to take whatever they want (claiming they're owed it for providing you things you may never have asked for, which are paid for by other people potentially ag…

Google aren't in France in order to better serve up search results - that can be done from anywhere. Google are in France to sell advertising, they are carrying on a business selling services to French companies. One of the big things in the UK was Google claiming they sold all their adverts from the Republic of Ireland not the UK and thus could pay Irish taxes. This was despite having lots of sales staff at their Lo…

>Google aren't in France in order to better serve up search results - that can be done from anywhere. Google are in France to sell advertising, they are carrying on a business selling services to French companies.

This doesn't contradict my point that Google are providing service to people (or the businesses people run) in France.

Re: Google's Paris HQ raided in tax probe

#53

Post by _wmd »

criddell wrote: post #36

What's the purpose of the raid? To seize file cabinets filled with documents? Wouldn't a company like Google have most of their documents in the cloud?

In many locales by law businesses are required to maintain certain sets of documents at their registered address. For example in the UK this includes at least the company articles of incorporation, although the list is more extensive than that. It's one reason many small businesses have their accountant as their registered address.

    Private limited companies must keep some or all of their statutory records
    at their registered office, unless they are stored at a SAIL address
    instead. These include the certificate of incorporation, the memorandum and
    articles of association and share certificates (if applicable).

    Furthermore, the following records and registers, where applicable, must be
    kept up-to-date and stored at the registered office or SAIL address for
    inspection purposes:

        Register of members.
        Register of company directors.
        Register of secretaries.
        Directors’ service contracts.
        Directors’ indemnities – security against liability claims or legal costs..
        Copies of resolutions.
        Minutes of meetings.
        Contracts relating to purchase of own shares.
        Documents relating to redemption or purchase of own shares out of capital by private company.
        Register of debenture holders.
        Instruments creating charges and register of charges
My presumption would be that the "raid" involved requesting their finance department furnish the inspectors with at the minimum whatever such documents are required to be held in France, and that such a "raid" would be standard practice at the onset of any tax investigation

Re: Google's Paris HQ raided in tax probe

#54

Post by charlesdm »

ucaetano wrote: post #46
charlesdm wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who says they don't have activities in Ireland? A lot of Google's employees are actually based in Ireland. > Just because you can do something "in general", you can't do it with the specific purpose of circumventing another legal obligation. Most countries have laws that say you can't do something JUST for tax purposes. You can, however, structure things in a tax friendly way, if there's a commercial motive to do so.

http://www.independent.ie/business/technology/google-hits-50... Over 5k employees apparently.

If that's not sufficient substance then I don't know what is. Yes, obviously they structured it like that intentionally and Ireland is happy with them being there. But it seems reasonable for a structure like that to fall within the scope of the law.

Re: Google's Paris HQ raided in tax probe

#55

Post by RawData »

criddell wrote: post #36

What's the purpose of the raid? To seize file cabinets filled with documents? Wouldn't a company like Google have most of their documents in the cloud?

It's a publicity stunt meant to make Google seem guilty...people don't know the details of the case, nor do they care...but some will remember that Google was "raided" and that sort of thing happens to criminals so...

Re: Google's Paris HQ raided in tax probe

#56

Post by logicchains »

nametakenobv wrote: post #33
logicchains wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>while contributing nothing themselves They contribute a service, in this case a search engine that's miles ahead of its closest competitor, Bing. They don't "take" anything, they offer something that you're free not to use. Unlike nation states, which are happy to take whatever they want (claiming they're owed it for providing you things you may never have asked for, which are paid for by other people potentially ag…

Google makes money in France. Given France's economy size, it's probably billions. They need to pay taxes to the french government for the privilege of doing business there, so the government can sped it on schools and other infrastructure, so the french citizens can be prosperous.

>the government can sped it on schools and other infrastructure, so the french citizens can be prosperous.

One of the fundamental take-homes of economics is that government spending is not what makes people prosperous. It may help achieve social outcomes, slice the pie more evenly, but not make it bigger. See for instance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28PP..., and cross reference against tax rates; most of the countries above France have lower tax/government spending. Singapore, with a purchasing-power adjusted per-capita GDP double that of France, has a top tax rate of 20%, and unlike some of the other top countries on that list doesn't have any significant supply of natural resources to fund government spending.

Re: Google's Paris HQ raided in tax probe

#57

Post by cscurmudgeon »

logicchains wrote: post #21
cscurmudgeon wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except Google was heavily dependent on funding from various branches of the USG in its early stages. Search for it. > case a search engine that's miles ahead of its closest competitor, Bing Thats debatable. Any blind studies?

>Except Google was heavily dependent on funding from various branches of the USG in its early stages. Search for it. But that funding could have came from anywhere. Just because the government funded something, doesn't mean that the thing would never be funded if the government didn't fund it. >Thats debatable. Any blind studies? Entirely anecdotal, but I've never met anyone who tried Bing and didn't switch back to G…

By the same logic Bing, Yahoo and DuckDuckGo (much better for technical searches) could provide Google's services if they disappeared from the face of the earth.

The USG was wise enough to fund them when they were extremely risky.

Re: Google's Paris HQ raided in tax probe

#59

Post by emp_zealoth »

charlesdm wrote: post #31
ciaranm wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people in Europe don't need Lawyers to submit their taxes. In fact, until I started my own company (UK) - I didn't 'submit' taxes. It was calculated (and taken) automatically based on my salary and otherwise declared income.

This depends a lot on the country. For example: I'd say most self employed people in Belgium use an accountant to file their taxes. Some (a subset) of those also have a tax lawyer who helps them optimise certain things. Self employed people (i.e. entrepreneurs) who make decent money will have a tax lawyer, because inevitably, you'll bump into an unfriendly tax collector somewhere down the road.

From my experiences with self-employed people (doctors, hundreds of them - im in an MD-motorcycle club) they will try to write off anything and everything and the accountants are there to talk them out of it

Re: Google's Paris HQ raided in tax probe

#60

Post by ctrlalt_g »

tomp wrote: post #47
mike_hearn wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For example, as an Irish company, you can open a subsidiary in France to do business in France. The whole point of the EU single market is that you do not have to do that. You can set up shop in Ireland and sell to the French market until the cows come home. You only owe Irish taxes (modulo the recent completely crazy VAT changes). Laws that say "forget the law, anything we think is unreasonable is illegal" are a gro…

> "forget the law, anything we think is unreasonable is illegal" That's basically how all Anglo-Saxon (including the US) law, i.e. case law, looks like.

My moment of epiphany and shock in law school was on realizing that right and wrong don't exist. As my professor used to say, "It's all theater."
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