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The Hidden Workforce Expanding Tesla's Factory

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Re: The Hidden Workforce Expanding Tesla's Factory

#51

Post by rdl »

The most difficult to understand part of the whole Tesla story for me is that they can operate the NUMMI plant in California successfully. I guess the huge capital base which they got essentially for free, and the proximity to Palo Alto HQ, makes up for Bay Area expenses and California regulation.

Sure wouldn't be where I'd choose to put a factory otherwise. From what I've read the low-VOC paint requirements in California lead to the Tesla Model S having inferior paint to Ford/etc (but still better than Nissan Leaf); one minor issue but probably representative.

Re: The Hidden Workforce Expanding Tesla's Factory

#52

Post by jsprogrammer »

azernik wrote: post #46
pingec wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So how much higher is US minimum wage? Perhaps 100%? Would you agree with someone who earns twice as much as you to automatically call you impoverished? I am no native speaker so I could be wrong, but I have looked up the word on Google. I believe that "impoverished" does imply context eg. [1] and is not simply a comparative word. It implies someone is really poor in a way that seriously affects his well-being, requi…

Only a 45% difference - $7.5 vs. €4.56. And now that I do a lookup, it's actually very similar to the minimum wage in Wyoming and Georgia.

The work was done in California, where the minimum is $10 (though it was $9 at the time Lesnik was injured).

Re: The Hidden Workforce Expanding Tesla's Factory

#53

Post by jsprogrammer »

bardworx wrote: post #27
ams6110 wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I flatly do not believe that Tesla did not know what was going on. The bid being as low as it was means that the savings were coming from somewhere. Presumably the materials used all had specifications so hard to cut corners there. That leaves labor. Come on, maybe they aren't legally responsible but morally and ethically they made a choice here.

Not entirely. Many companies who bid out projects during "off times" would receive preferential bids. In colder climates, if your construction begins in the colder months, construction companies will bid lower since there is less work and do their best to make little to no profit on the job. That's fairly standard. The downside, most construction companies will have many COs (Change Order)to supplement the work. Just…

>Parent company that accepts bid isn't morally responsible to check on their subcontractors. If parent company is responsible, imagine the possibilities? Ever subcontractor would then blame the parent company for just about everything since they're not held responsible.

What absolves them of responsibility? Exchanging money? If the parent company isn't responsible then imagine what happens: every parent company blames subcontractors for everything as the parent could never be responsible since they only commissioned the project.

Re: The Hidden Workforce Expanding Tesla's Factory

#54

Post by [deleted] »

azernik wrote: post #18
pingec wrote: post #3

5$ per hour is practically minimum wage here in Slovenia except that you also get compulsory health insurance and pension contribution on top of that. And it's not extremely hard to get a job. I wonder why anyone would repeatedly fly to the US to work for that money. He was maybe getting or was promised something more. Also funny how they call us an "impoverished country". In my eyes an average Joe has much better qu…

They call you an impoverished country because Slavic language = Eastern Europe = poor hungry alcoholic Russians. Welcome to the US media :-P

[deleted]

Re: The Hidden Workforce Expanding Tesla's Factory

#55

Post by hueving »

jsprogrammer wrote: post #53
bardworx wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not entirely. Many companies who bid out projects during "off times" would receive preferential bids. In colder climates, if your construction begins in the colder months, construction companies will bid lower since there is less work and do their best to make little to no profit on the job. That's fairly standard. The downside, most construction companies will have many COs (Change Order)to supplement the work. Just…

>Parent company that accepts bid isn't morally responsible to check on their subcontractors. If parent company is responsible, imagine the possibilities? Ever subcontractor would then blame the parent company for just about everything since they're not held responsible. What absolves them of responsibility? Exchanging money? If the parent company isn't responsible then imagine what happens: every parent company blame…

You are saying the customer is responsible for how a company achieves something. (Tesla is a customer of the contractor.)

By that procedure of blame shifting, we could basically blame every Volkswagen customer for the diesel emissions scandal because they should have done their due diligence and realized that an engine couldn't perform that well without cutting corners.

Re: The Hidden Workforce Expanding Tesla's Factory

#56

Post by hueving »

forgetsusername wrote: post #15
slicktux wrote: post #2

It is a rather complex problem and it needs to be solved, but I do not see how it's Tesla's fault. . . First off Tesla chose Eisenmann for the expansion and in return they subcontracted another company which then brought in the the workers for the illegal work. Given those circumstances I believe Eisenmann knew what was going on if not they would have never made such a low bid, because they would have risked paying o…

> Therefore, Eisenmann is responsible and Tesla should not be held accountable. Why not? Otherwise, follow the logic: sub-contractor after sub-contractor until you reach the bottom and you've got some fly-by-night operation that you can't hold accountable. Everyone involved shares the blame, including Tesla

Because a customer shouldn't be held accountable for another company's actions. The government's job is to enforce labor laws and it should do just that. Then we don't have this gross attempt to just find the biggest bank account to blame.

Re: The Hidden Workforce Expanding Tesla's Factory

#57

Post by jsprogrammer »

hueving wrote: post #55
jsprogrammer wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Parent company that accepts bid isn't morally responsible to check on their subcontractors. If parent company is responsible, imagine the possibilities? Ever subcontractor would then blame the parent company for just about everything since they're not held responsible. What absolves them of responsibility? Exchanging money? If the parent company isn't responsible then imagine what happens: every parent company blame…

You are saying the customer is responsible for how a company achieves something. (Tesla is a customer of the contractor.) By that procedure of blame shifting, we could basically blame every Volkswagen customer for the diesel emissions scandal because they should have done their due diligence and realized that an engine couldn't perform that well without cutting corners.

VW customers should have realized that.

Re: The Hidden Workforce Expanding Tesla's Factory

#58

Post by writetoalok »

manmal wrote: post #43
patrickg_zill wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think that Tesla, with all their engineering, job costing, materials science, and cost accounting talent, is unable to estimate the work needed to install the paint shop mentioned in the article? There is no "magic pixie dust" that Eisenmann had, that they used to sprinkle over their materials that would make installation of the mechanical systems any less labor-intensive than their competitors. Either Tesla k…

Tesla was just ok with Eisenmann exploiting global wage differences - they didn't necessarily know how low their employees' wages would actually be.

Read their statement in the article

> "Tesla enters into contractual agreements with its general contractors, which allow them to select the resources they need for the job while also requiring them to hire and _pay_ their workers appropriately."

Do you think they did a good job in enforcing their own stated requirement?

Any client who permits people to work in their premises providing them with badges and security passes does minimal background checks. Now tell me what minimal background check would not have found their Visa Status and hence Visa fraud on the basis of B1 Visa person doing hands on job?

Do you still think Tesla was ignorant or closed their eyes purposefully?

Re: The Hidden Workforce Expanding Tesla's Factory

#59

Post by sjwright »

forgetsusername wrote: post #15
slicktux wrote: post #2

It is a rather complex problem and it needs to be solved, but I do not see how it's Tesla's fault. . . First off Tesla chose Eisenmann for the expansion and in return they subcontracted another company which then brought in the the workers for the illegal work. Given those circumstances I believe Eisenmann knew what was going on if not they would have never made such a low bid, because they would have risked paying o…

> Therefore, Eisenmann is responsible and Tesla should not be held accountable. Why not? Otherwise, follow the logic: sub-contractor after sub-contractor until you reach the bottom and you've got some fly-by-night operation that you can't hold accountable. Everyone involved shares the blame, including Tesla

Blame has to stop somewhere. By that logic, why stop at Tesla? Perhaps we should blame Tesla's individual investors? Or all the consumers who placed a deposit down for a Model 3? Or the City of Freemont? Or the Californian government? Or the US government?

Re: The Hidden Workforce Expanding Tesla's Factory

#60

Post by moonfern »

slicktux wrote: post #2

It is a rather complex problem and it needs to be solved, but I do not see how it's Tesla's fault. . . First off Tesla chose Eisenmann for the expansion and in return they subcontracted another company which then brought in the the workers for the illegal work. Given those circumstances I believe Eisenmann knew what was going on if not they would have never made such a low bid, because they would have risked paying o…

Belgium, proud of it's social protection and security, has the same problem. Delhaize Belgium bought it's chickens from an industrial farm. That farm hired a company who brought in workers for help during the harvest. The workers were from Bulgaria, standard of living there's much lower than Slovenia. Member states of the European Union adhere to the free trade of goods and labor principle. Which meant in this case those Bulgarian workers fell under Bulgarian labor laws. It's really a complex matter because civil servants accused this company of illegaly employing staff to dodge taxes and cheat social security. The Labour Appellate Tribunal of Gent imposed severe fines which would have impoverished everyone related, also "normal" workers, to the industrial farm. The court of cassation ( highest instance court in Belgium ) judged that the court of Gent was wrong. So the process had to be redone. The Labour Appelate Tribunal of Antwerp judged that the defendants, Delhaize and that chicken farm, didn't breach the law so they were not guilty. Case closed.

Start rant

I' m wondering if Tesla's case will grab headlines in the European "left"press. If so that indicates that populism uses facts to give you the sentiment that you're a victim of capitalism instead of realising the complexity of postmodern times End rant

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